Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What's Wrong with AI?

kurtis.weblog.lol

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#21

Post by bezier-curve »

kamranjon wrote: post #14
hunterpayne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason for that. Its not especially true. In fact, the more renewables you deploy, the more natural gas you use. And that's before you consider that most renewables are sited so poorly that it likely doesn't reduce CO2 emissions at all. This guy also seems to think that water is somehow destroyed when its used for cooling. This also isn't true. I really wish the author hadn't started with these claims that…

"the more renewables you deploy, the more natural gas you use." -- source? "most renewables are sited so poorly that it likely doesn't reduce CO2 emissions at all" -- source?

I don't think this even requires a source, it's completely made up.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#22

Post by semiquaver »

> AI Psychosis

So much written about this but nothing about anti-ai-psychosis, which this article is a clear example of.

There is no possible response to any of the issues raised would make a whit of difference to the author, since they have made a quasi-religious and certainly political determination that anything associated with AI is bad and should be avoided.

So the article itself can be basically ignored, it’s not written in good faith, it’s essentially propaganda in service of a fixed political viewpoint.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#23

Post by semiquaver »

mmilunic wrote: post #7

Unlike a lot of anti-AI writing I have seen which can drift into the territory of reactionist rhetoric, this feels very grounded. As a student entering the job market, I personally am quite conflicted about my usage of AI, due to all the effects you have said. Especially when testing out more recent “agentic” coding tools where they do literally all the work, not only are there the moral qualms but they’re also not e…

  > Unlike a lot of anti-AI writing I have seen which can drift into the territory of reactionist rhetoric, this feels very grounded
How so? The whole article is about society-level concerns as opposed to discussing the merits of the tools and capabilities themselves.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#24

Post by semiquaver »

jsfitzsimmons wrote: post #13
hunterpayne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason for that. Its not especially true. In fact, the more renewables you deploy, the more natural gas you use. And that's before you consider that most renewables are sited so poorly that it likely doesn't reduce CO2 emissions at all. This guy also seems to think that water is somehow destroyed when its used for cooling. This also isn't true. I really wish the author hadn't started with these claims that…

Yes, AI datacenters do actually use evaporative cooling. The water isn't destroyed obviously but it is made unavailable for other purposes (like keeping people, animals, and plants alive) and depletes water tables that can't be easily replenished

I hope you are also inveighing against industrial agricultural use of water, which uses orders of mangitude more water in significantly more wasteful ways.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#25

Post by Arch485 »

semiquaver wrote: post #22

> AI Psychosis So much written about this but nothing about anti-ai-psychosis, which this article is a clear example of. There is no possible response to any of the issues raised would make a whit of difference to the author, since they have made a quasi-religious and certainly political determination that anything associated with AI is bad and should be avoided. So the article itself can be basically ignored, it’s n…

I disagree, if you'd like to propose solutions to these problems as well as an implementation strategy, I'd be very happy to hear them! Source: am the author.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#26

Post by charcircuit »

>Energy Use

>Asking ChatGPT a question uses approximately 10x as much energy as a traditional search engine

I stopped reading here. It is more energy efficient to have ChatGPT write the code than a developer on their workstation. It in fact can save energy by having AI do it.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#27

Post by eesmith »

pixl97 wrote: post #6
kamranjon wrote: post #2

"In some instances, AI data centres are powered completely by renewable energy. Unfortunately, unless the data centre builds new renewable energy sources to supply 100% of its power, this still results in an increase in fossil fuel usage. Why? Because if the data centre is using pre-existing sources for renewable energy, it is taking that energy away from other consumers that need it. To pick up the slack, we must ge…

Eh, somewhat reductive thinking. Demand for renewables causes an increase in the build out of new renewables. Yea, it's not instant, but that's how markets work. Coal/fuel is expensive, so this drives demand for more wind solar, especially during high demand times that bring the highest power prices. The problem with this essay is thinking power demand is bad. It is not when we can deploy massive amounts of renewable…

The text said "some instances". If you're next to a hydropower dam and are willing to pay for it, you can outbid others, who then switch to non-renewable sources. The dam can only put out so much energy. Ideally you'll switch to solar, but as various sources point out, it's not just adding solar power but also interconnect capacity, which is why a lot of data centers are using natural gas. Your "not instant" is many years, and longer than the timeframe these companies want to wait.

https://www.itpro.com/infrastructure/data-centres/gas-powere...

"Traditional hubs are at or near saturation, which has created long connection queues with waits of typically seven-to-ten years and in some cases 13-15. The International Energy Agency (IEA) estimates that globally, nearly 20% of planned data center projects risk delay due to grid bottlenecks, and as a result developers are building ‘behind the meter’ primary generation. This offers speed to market in months rather than years.”"

"gas is mainly chosen because it’s the fastest and easiest way to generate your own power. Turbines and engines can be set up and begin providing reliable energy quickly, while renewable power generation can be intermittent without costly storage – and takes time and money to be set up."

https://www.greengasturbines.com/blog/gas-turbines-for-data-...

"Global data center electricity consumption is projected to more than double by 2030, driven primarily by AI training and inference workloads. The IEA estimates data centers could consume over 1,000 TWh annually by 2030 — roughly equal to Japan's total electricity consumption."

"Grid interconnection queues are now 4–7 years in many US markets, making behind-the-meter gas turbine generation the fastest path to powering new hyperscale campuses."

"Microsoft, Amazon, and Google have all signed gas turbine power agreements or acquired generation assets in 2024–2026, signalling a structural shift in how hyperscalers think about electricity procurement."

"The gas turbine data center trend is not temporary. Even as renewable procurement grows, the intermittency gap and the sheer scale of AI power demand mean firm, dispatchable generation will remain essential for Tier III and IV reliability standards."

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#28

Post by quickthrowman »

scarmig wrote: post #18
cbarnes99 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large portion of data centers use open loop cooling. That is to say evaporative cooling. So they take fresh drinking water, make it hot, and dump it in the air. It's a lot cheaper than closed loop cooling.

A "large portion" of data centers needs to be quantified. Particularly, newer data centers are much more likely to used closed loop systems. And, the bigger they are, the more likely they're on closed loop.

I’d like to see some evidence of that, adding evaporative cooling towers to a chilled water loop can almost double the COP. I don’t see datacenter operators foregoing much cheaper opex unless they’re in a water-critical area.

Re: What's Wrong with AI?

#29

Post by waffletower »

semiquaver wrote: post #24
jsfitzsimmons wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, AI datacenters do actually use evaporative cooling. The water isn't destroyed obviously but it is made unavailable for other purposes (like keeping people, animals, and plants alive) and depletes water tables that can't be easily replenished

I hope you are also inveighing against industrial agricultural use of water, which uses orders of mangitude more water in significantly more wasteful ways.

Shouts "AI wastes water!" with food in my mouth while eating an almond butter sandwich with a pizza lined up next.
Post reply on HN