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Security through obscurity is not bad

mobeigi.com

21–30 of 228 posts

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#21
Yeah, security through obscurity as part of securing a system is good. Security through obscurity as the only way of securing a system is not.

Like, a lot of it comes down to 'high friction' vs 'low friction'. Obscurity means high friction. It means that the attacker needs to craft a specific solution for your site or system in particular rather than relying on an off-the-shelf solution to handle it all for them.

For example, the article's point about changing the WordPress database prefix fits into this category perfectly. Does it really make things that much more 'secure'? No, of course not. But it does mean that automated scripts that just assume tables like wp_posts exist will fail. It means that an attacker can't just run any old WordPress hacking toolkit and watch it do its thing, they have to figure out what database prefix you're using first.

Same with antispam solutions. The best solution to stop spam is to make your site unique in some way. To add some sort of challenge that a new user has to overcome to use the site, like a question related to the topic, a honeypot field they can't fill in, a script that detects how quickly they register, etc.

This won't stop a determined spammer, but it will stop or delay bots and automated scripts that rely on the target system having the same behaviour across the board. The spammer has to specifically target your site in particular, not just every forum script running the same software.

And much of society works this way to a degree. A federated or decentralised system (whether a social network or political movement) isn't technically harder to attack than a centralised one might be.

But it is more work to attack it. If a government or company wants to censor Reddit or Discord or YouTube, they have one target they can force to censor information across the board. If they want to target the Fediverse or some sort of torrent based system, then they have to track down dozens of people and deal with at least some of those people refusing or taking it to court or being in countries that aren't under their control or whatever else.

That's kinda what a good security through obscurity setup can be. You can't mass target everyone at once, you have to target different systems individually and spend more time and resources in the process.

However, you still need real security measures there. Security through obscurity is like hiding a safe behind a painting. It'll stop casual attackers from finding it, but it won't stop a targeted attack on its own. You need a strong lock, materials that are difficult to drill through and the safe itself being difficult to remove from the wall too.

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#22

Regarding Counterstrike (game) example, there were already a lot of cheaters and a cheater ecosystem that still exists to this day. I suspect Valve could address it if it wanted to, but the gameplay/development cost trade-offs aren't enough. Valve pivoted to server-side anti-cheat and toleration because someone probably did the math on max(profit) with lootboxes.

Valve's VACnet solution is definitely interesting. It uses AI, deep learning and is server side. It's hard to tell how effective that has been for them compared to traditional client side detection systems; I don't imagine they'll share any results.

The fact that it's completely hidden from cheat developers gives them a huge advantage though. In the past, any client side algorithm or detection method could be reversed engineered by cheat developers and patched before lunch time. Now they're working against Valve completely in the dark.

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#23
Security which has layers of obscurity can be incredibly powerful especially if you believe in counter intelligence. You want attackers to find the wrong key sometimes because it will lead to you collecting intelligence on them. But this increases the cost in time and infrastructure.

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#24
I get what this post is saying, but I'm going to push back that "security through obscurity" isn't just something that people parrot without understanding.

Obscurity provides, effectively, no security. There may be other benefits to the obscurity, but considering the obscurity a layer of your security is bad. I hope we all agree that moving telnet to another port provides no security (it's easily sniffable, easily fingerprintable).

If it provides another benefit, use it, but don't think there's any security in it.

For ~30 years I've moved my ssh to a non-standard port. It quiets down the logs nicely, people aren't always knocking on the door. But it's not a component of my security: I still disable password auth, disable root login, and only use ssh keys for access. But considering it security is undeniably bad.

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#25

The problem with this argument is that you can justify an infinite amount of crap with it, the security equivalent of cockroach papers; which inevitably people ends up treating as real security. One example I remember is Pidgin storing its passwords in plain text in $HOME. They could have encrypted them with some hardcoded string, and made a lot of people happy that they would no longer grep their $HOME and find thei…

> The problem with this argument is that you can justify an infinite amount of crap with it

Does that make it wrong?

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#26
I want to add that Obscurity is ambiguous. Is changing the port of SSH "obscurity"? Some may say yes, because you could find it by bruteforce. But a password with infinite attempts can also be bruteforced. Here, the defining factor of security is maximum number of attempts (either on ports, username or whatever).

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#27
Obscurity is not security.

But it can add a bit of delay to someone breaking actual security, so maybe they'll hit the next target first as that is a touch easier. Though with the increasing automation of hole detection and exploitation, even that might stop being the case if it hasn't already.

The biggest problem with obscurity measures IMO is psychological: people tend to assume that the measures⁰ are far more effective than they actually are, so they might make less effort to verify that the proper security is done properly.

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[0] like moving SSHd to a non-standard port¹

[1] a solution that can inconvenience your users more than attackers, and historically (in combination with exploiting a couple of bugs) actually made certain local non-root credential scanning attacks possible if you chose a high port

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#28

The problem with this argument is that you can justify an infinite amount of crap with it, the security equivalent of cockroach papers; which inevitably people ends up treating as real security. One example I remember is Pidgin storing its passwords in plain text in $HOME. They could have encrypted them with some hardcoded string, and made a lot of people happy that they would no longer grep their $HOME and find thei…

> The problem with this argument is that you can justify an infinite amount of crap with it Does that make it wrong?

Not per se. But it does make it potentially dangerous thinking depending on how it is applied.

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#29

The problem with this argument is that you can justify an infinite amount of crap with it, the security equivalent of cockroach papers; which inevitably people ends up treating as real security. One example I remember is Pidgin storing its passwords in plain text in $HOME. They could have encrypted them with some hardcoded string, and made a lot of people happy that they would no longer grep their $HOME and find thei…

Why a hardcoded string and not a user specific password the user used for pidgin? Then you’ve got real security and even using a password stored in the user’s keychain means that the passwords are not trivially accessible.

The whole point of security in depth is that you use non colinear layers of protection to raise the cost of an attack and reduce the blast radius of a successful attack.

Re: Security through obscurity is not bad

#30
post #2

Security through obscurity is NOT bad. Security ONLY through obscurity is bad (Kerckhoffs's Principle). Security through obscurity, as an additional layer, is good! I've been saying this ever since that phrase was coined. A layer or two of obscurity keeps a lot of noise out of logs, reduces alert fatigue and cuts down on storage costs especially if one is using Splunk as their SIEM and makes targeted attacks much eas…

>I've been saying this ever since that phrase was coined

You have been alive since the 1880s?

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