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Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

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Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#21

Post by vintermann »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #19
vintermann wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first version of Pianoteq came back in 2006. There are apparently some exotic mid-90s synths with claims of being physically modeled too, don't know how accurate that is. I currently use a raspberry pi with Pianoteq as sound output for my digital piano. It got a reluctant stamp of approval from my pianist son, although of course he prefers the physical response of even a poor acoustic piano.

Pianoteq is more like spectral modelling. The sound lacks some of the movement and bloom of a real piano. 90s physical modelling was a very simplified modular kind of modelling. Instead of analogue oscillators and filters you had "string" models, "pipe" models, various resonators, and so on. The models were interesting, but still quite crude and basic. This project is the most physical kind of physical modelling. It'…

Pianoteq was quite heavy computationally when it came, it still is, arguably. It was a challenge to get it to run on a raspberry pi 4 in real time.

I can tell the difference between Pianoteq and a real piano, but I can't in general tell the difference between Pianoteq and a recording of a piano. Maybe there's some insane level of hi-fi gear which would let me, idk? But in general, when it's good enough for Steinway, Petrof and my conservatory student son to give their stamp of approval, I think it's good enough for me as well :) quite a few of those insane things you mention you can already do with pianoteq's physical model (i.e. emulating a 20m grand), and I suspect they keep a few knobs to themselves to sell virtual instruments.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#22

Post by vintermann »

cwillu wrote: post #14
vintermann wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first version of Pianoteq came back in 2006. There are apparently some exotic mid-90s synths with claims of being physically modeled too, don't know how accurate that is. I currently use a raspberry pi with Pianoteq as sound output for my digital piano. It got a reluctant stamp of approval from my pianist son, although of course he prefers the physical response of even a poor acoustic piano.

Do you have an analog sustain pedal? The fine control with partial pedaling made some difference for me re: pianoteq's feel.

I don't know how many levels it has, but it's definitively more than 2 :) I am a lousy pianist anyway, it's my son who's serious.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#23

Post by xphos »

As someone who plays the violin very poorly I don't think this sounds like violin at all. It is very folksy synthetic sounding. They are clearly plucking but it sounds similar to if you were bowing its really strange. I definitely could replicate that quality of model but I think I have heard much better models elsewhere

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#25

Post by seedlessmike »

vintermann wrote: post #7
shooly wrote: post #3

Not sure if that's news, Audio Modeling[1] has been doing that for quite a long time now. The big plus of physical modeling instead of sampling is disk size - instead of tens of GB of samples, you get a 15MB plugin. It's much more difficult to use, though - you have to control lots of aspects of the simulation (using automation in DAW or MIDI controllers) to make it sound actually realistic. OK I guess it seems like…

The first version of Pianoteq came back in 2006. There are apparently some exotic mid-90s synths with claims of being physically modeled too, don't know how accurate that is. I currently use a raspberry pi with Pianoteq as sound output for my digital piano. It got a reluctant stamp of approval from my pianist son, although of course he prefers the physical response of even a poor acoustic piano.

Pianoteq is amazing with a good controller like a big Kawai VPC1 or the fanciest Fatar action in the Studiologic "GT" models. It is very responsive. I've been using it for over a decade and the sound keeps improving.

The combination of pianoteq and a sample based piano is pretty nice too, though tough to do on a Pi.

Good speakers improve the experience because you get your room resonance etc.

The coolest thing - you can change temperament. So if you are playing music from before equal temperament, you can hear what different keys used to sound like! Very interesting especially with Bach.

I agree with your son, there is nothing like a real piano. There are interesting attempts at combining the digital and mechanical with soundboard transducers from Kawai and Yamaha, I haven't used them but I would like to.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#26

Post by mchinen »

tkocmathla wrote: post #16
mchinen wrote: post #2

Bowed instruments are very cool to model because of the nonlinear slip of the bow against the string. A bit curious why bowing was not discussed or used in the example of a violin, just plucking. Do luthiers test violins more by plucking than bowing?

They briefly address this in the article: > Violin bowing, the researchers say, is a much more complicated interaction to model.

Thanks, I missed that.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#27

Post by moralestapia »

yummybrainz wrote: post #18
florilegiumson wrote: post #15

“As it is, the new computational model is the first to generate realistic sound based on the laws of physics and acoustics.” Ouch: this is completely inaccurate. Physical modeling has its roots in the 80s and Stefan Bilbao has been doing FDM based methods for over 20 years. I think he discusses fem in numerical sound sysnthesis

I'm assuming the intended meaning is that this was the first time the approach led to "realistic" sound?

That's also not the case. There have been some really accurate physically-modeled instruments for at least 20 years.

Also, aschkually, a violin is on the "easier" end of making it sound realistic. It's one of the "tutorial" models you go through when you start learning about this (resonators + reverb get you 80% there). Much harder to do any plucking sound (guitar, piano), and much much harder to model percussions accurately (cymbals, drums) and in such a way that the sound doesn't come out dry and very evidently synthetic.

Source: I was very invested into this in the 2000s, although as a hobby, not professionally.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#28

Post by iainmerrick »

vintermann wrote: post #21
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pianoteq is more like spectral modelling. The sound lacks some of the movement and bloom of a real piano. 90s physical modelling was a very simplified modular kind of modelling. Instead of analogue oscillators and filters you had "string" models, "pipe" models, various resonators, and so on. The models were interesting, but still quite crude and basic. This project is the most physical kind of physical modelling. It'…

Pianoteq was quite heavy computationally when it came, it still is, arguably. It was a challenge to get it to run on a raspberry pi 4 in real time. I can tell the difference between Pianoteq and a real piano, but I can't in general tell the difference between Pianoteq and a recording of a piano. Maybe there's some insane level of hi-fi gear which would let me, idk? But in general, when it's good enough for Steinway,…

I can tell the difference between Pianoteq and a real piano, but I can't in general tell the difference between Pianoteq and a recording of a piano.

That's a great way to put it. There's no way to fully reproduce that live sound, but compared to anything played through speakers, Pianoteq is indistinguishable from a real piano.

Out of the box it sounds a little too perfect, but just setting the Condition to the midway point (1.0) fixes that.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#29

Post by rpozarickij »

arstep wrote: post #10

it doesn't sound as a real violin at all. A professional violinist would immediately tell that something is wrong.

I've played other instruments (not very professionally) for 10y when I was much younger but was often surrounded by sounds of violins and these don't sound realistic at all.

My main instrument was the saxophone and whenever I hear AI/artificial saxophone somewhere I can notice it right away, but I'm very curious if I've ever been a victim of the toupee fallacy.

I wonder whether there's a good test/game where you have to guess whether a given sound of a musical instrument is real or not.

Re: Virtual violin produces realistic sounds

#30

Post by Dropoutjeep »

yummybrainz wrote: post #18
florilegiumson wrote: post #15

“As it is, the new computational model is the first to generate realistic sound based on the laws of physics and acoustics.” Ouch: this is completely inaccurate. Physical modeling has its roots in the 80s and Stefan Bilbao has been doing FDM based methods for over 20 years. I think he discusses fem in numerical sound sysnthesis

I'm assuming the intended meaning is that this was the first time the approach led to "realistic" sound?

If this is their definition of "realistic" sound then I'm horrified
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