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After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

theguardian.com

21–30 of 44 posts

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#21

So renewables didn't cause the blackout per the author, but according to the neutral report [0], solar and wind exacerbated the blackout. As these renewables and grid change to a different configuration/inverter technology, this problem shouldn't happen again? [0] https://www.entsoe.eu/publications/blackout/28-april-2025-ib...

> So renewables didn't cause the blackout per the author, but according to the neutral report [0], solar and wind exacerbated the blackout. So, what caused the blackput?

It is a complex system. There is no single cause. There's a multitude of causes.

The root cause tree with its multiple roots on page 23 is a good start.

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#22
post #13
post #8

The proximal cause of the blackout was a single faulty solar inverter in a PV plant. The distal cause, however, was inappropriate disconnection of wind/solar generation and widespread cascading failure of reactive power support across the grid. Add to that a whole bunch of noncompliant transformers which tripped inappropriately, and Spanish grid operators inability to react appropriately.

It looks like you know way more than the entso report. Which mostly blamed it on governance. Mostly because a small change in a complex system can lead to cascading failures. They also included data to prevent it in the future. And yes solar and wind power makes these failures more complex but they are certainly not to blame. (Just read the article…)

The reason is that classical grids are mostly self-correcting. Rotating inertia can stabilize frequency and can produce or absorb reactive power.

"Reactive power" sounds fancy, but it just means that motors can create a drag. The power lines are giant capacitors, and capacitors have the lowest effective resistance when they are discharged. So the current is greatest when the voltage crosses the zero mark. Inductive (rotating) loads are the opposite, their effective resistance is greatest when the current starts to rise or fall. So this limits the initial inrush of the current.

But there's more! When you have a transformer and a long line, you can essentially get a boost converter. The voltage from a transformer travels through a low-resistance wire until it reaches the end, and because the line can be modeled as a series of capacitors, you essentially get a "charge pump" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_pump ). From the viewpoint of the generator you have one large capacitor, but from the viewpoint of a consumer in the middle of the line, you have two capacitors in series.

As a result, the voltage in power lines can _spike_ if there's not enough rotating load. This is called Ferranti effect, and in Spain it was the primary reason for the faults.

This is all fixable, but it requires investment and regulation. And Spain (and other countries) have been neglecting that, by incentivizing the cheapest possible generation.

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is a leader in Hydro. Why they don’t use their dams for storage ?

Because you'd have to have engineered the whole thing for that purpose right from the get go. In theory you can run the generators in reverse and push water up the hill into the basin. In practice this may not work for a multitude of reasons (priming, encasement, rotation reversal, cavitation, impeller and impeller housing design).

Also missing in vast majority of the dams is a lower reservoir. Pumping up the water from a river/canal below the dam would result in a dry river bed just below the dam rather quickly

*edit* spell

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you'd have to have engineered the whole thing for that purpose right from the get go. In theory you can run the generators in reverse and push water up the hill into the basin. In practice this may not work for a multitude of reasons (priming, encasement, rotation reversal, cavitation, impeller and impeller housing design).

Also missing in vast majority of the dams is a lower reservoir. Pumping up the water from a river/canal below the dam would result in a dry river bed just below the dam rather quickly *edit* spell

Yes, excellent point. Cruachan dam is a nice example of such a double storage setup.

https://www.visitcruachan.co.uk/

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#25
post #20
post #14

The rate of new solar capacity is falling though, according to that graph. And: "With annual additions now around 1 GW, UNEF is calling for stronger momentum to maintain progress towards 2030 targets" "Growth, however, has slowed, with only around one gigawatt added last year. To reach the national target of 19 gigawatts by 2030, deployment will need to accelerate, the association" [0] [0] https://www.pveurope.eu/mar…

Data from last year may show a slowdown, but I’d bet that the Iran situation may be pushing demand up

Yup, hopefully the Spanish Government will address the slow down and announce a commitment to keep up the pace (if not already). Though of course they are already doing very, very well.

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#26

You should read the report, its a good description of a complex system failing complexly. (well the reasons leading up to it failing were complex) The interesting thing about spain's grid is that it doesn't have that much battery compared to say the UK (the uk has about 11 gwhr which is about enough to power the entire uk for around 20mins) The Iberian grid has There is currently a large lucrative market in grid scal…

Spain is a leader in Hydro. Why they don’t use their dams for storage ?

Reconfiguring dams for storage isn't easy, quick or possible.

Non-storage dams don't have lower lakes to pull from, and the surrounding area might not be able to support it.

plus they also need water when there are droughts, which spain is also prone to.

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#27
post #14

The rate of new solar capacity is falling though, according to that graph. And: "With annual additions now around 1 GW, UNEF is calling for stronger momentum to maintain progress towards 2030 targets" "Growth, however, has slowed, with only around one gigawatt added last year. To reach the national target of 19 gigawatts by 2030, deployment will need to accelerate, the association" [0] [0] https://www.pveurope.eu/mar…

The 2026 Ember report said that 99% of new global electricity demand was met by solar+wind (solar 75% alone). Solar broke its previous records on relative and absolute installed numbers. Fossil fuel usage shrank. There might be regional changes, but there is no stopping solar. https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/global-electricity-...

Good news. But "there is no stopping solar" is a straw-man. Nobody said it's stopping.

(Also, I'm discussing an apparent slowdown in Spain's rate of new solar capacity (given the article is about Spain). And global trends are not too relevant to that topic. We all know it's easy to hide issues in global stats – domestic consumers Spain won't care if China increases their solar by 1000000%, for example.)

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#28
Unrelated to the cause but I just want to say, actually experiencing it in Barcelona was thrilling. No lights in the streets, just illuminated by strategically placed police cars. Everyone out meeting their neighbours, playing music on their phones, playing card games, bars giving away their drinks.

It was a real communal event. Like going back to a simpler time that hasn't actually existed in modern times. Maybe we should do it again.

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#29

You should read the report, its a good description of a complex system failing complexly. (well the reasons leading up to it failing were complex) The interesting thing about spain's grid is that it doesn't have that much battery compared to say the UK (the uk has about 11 gwhr which is about enough to power the entire uk for around 20mins) The Iberian grid has There is currently a large lucrative market in grid scal…

Spain is a leader in Hydro. Why they don’t use their dams for storage ?

Spain does have few (probably 4 according to ESP Wikipedia) pumped-storage hydroelectricity plants. Supposedly these are being used nowadays to store excess of energy produced by fotovoltaic plants. No idea how fast these can switch from storing energy to producing it and if these were used to help during the blackout.

Re: After Spain's blackout, its shift to renewables and grid evolution power on

#30
post #28

Unrelated to the cause but I just want to say, actually experiencing it in Barcelona was thrilling. No lights in the streets, just illuminated by strategically placed police cars. Everyone out meeting their neighbours, playing music on their phones, playing card games, bars giving away their drinks. It was a real communal event. Like going back to a simpler time that hasn't actually existed in modern times. Maybe we…

If you would have a family member having a scheduled chemotherapy treatment for that day the thrill would be gone. Not every day is great for the chill out.
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