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Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

nature.com

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Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#21

Post by like_any_other »

orsorna wrote: post #17
nostromo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is about truth not social outcomes. People keep wondering why trust in scientific findings is in free fall. A big part of it is because many scientists have become comfortable lying when they feel it’s for a noble cause.

I really don't care if the people around me have physiological differences from me. It would be wonderful to explore that and such differences. But as OP pointed out the discussion gets co-opted by people who would kill others over physiological differences. How is such a viewpoint conducive to a peaceful society where millions of people with physiological differences exist? For good reason, the wider community isn't…

> people who would kill others over physiological differences

Most of them just want to enforce borders. And then the dogma that we are all the same is co-opted by people who would see their ethnic group wiped out, as they are told that they don't even exist except as a meaningless social construct, and their desire for ethnic self-preservation is therefore illegitimate - there is nothing to preserve!

The same rhetoric targeting Palestinians: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/perpetuating-the-myth-of-a-p...

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#22

Post by idiotsecant »

like_any_other wrote: post #13
meroes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs?

I don't think you could have chosen a worse example. Dogs are themselves a subspecies, and are split into many different breeds, of wildly different character and physiology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Taxonomy

Breeds and species are different things. Parent post is making a (very good) point that dogs can pretty much all breed with one another.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#23

Post by renewiltord »

like_any_other wrote: post #7

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

They have to be. The snail darter is genetically identical to another animal and is a separate species. Most likely different humans are as well.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#25

Post by FunHearing3443 »

jetrink wrote: post #15
phainopepla2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it unpopular on the right? Genuine question. I have only seen people associated with the left deny or downplay this.

The religious right, specifically. They would say that all people are descended quite recently from Noah and his family.

Not all of us. Many are evolutionary or old earth creationists that generally don’t have an issue with many aspects of evolution.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#26

Post by MontyCarloHall »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #6
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

Not that surprising when you consider, as the paper does, the explosion of very meaningful traits such as the ability to digest lactose and various anti-malaria adaptations e.g. Sickle Cell and the Duffy-null mutation. It's just controversial for obvious reasons. The notion that human groups may have meaningfully evolved in different ways over the past 10,000 years, and may still be evolving, is an unpopular one on b…

The reason no one wants to talk is that these discussions are always co-opted by racists wanting to affirm their beliefs, regardless of the underlying science. Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race.

>Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race.

Sorry, do you have any examples? His views that I've read [0, 1] are scientifically rigorous and terminologically precise, deftly navigating the politics that some consider extremely controversial. To wit, one of my favorite passages from [1], which deals specifically with terminology:

   But “ancestry” is not a euphemism, nor is it synonymous with “race.” Instead, the term is born of an urgent need to come up with a precise language to discuss genetic differences among people at a time when scientific developments have finally provided the tools to detect them. It is now undeniable that there are nontrivial average genetic differences across populations in multiple traits, and the race vocabulary is too ill-defined and too loaded with historical baggage to be helpful. If we continue to use it we will not be able to escape the current debate, which is mired in an argument between two indefensible positions. On the one side there are beliefs about the nature of the differences that are grounded in bigotry and have little basis in reality. On the other side there is the idea that any biological differences among populations are so modest that as a matter of social policy they can be ignored and papered over. It is time to move on from this paralyzing false dichotomy and to figure out what the genome is actually telling us.
This particular passage is on p. 253 of [1], but everything in Chapter 11 ("The Genomics of Race and Identity," pp. 247-273) is well worth the read.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-r...

[1] https://sackett.net/reich_who_we_are_and_how_we_got_here.pdf

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#27

Post by yabutlivnWoods »

like_any_other wrote: post #7

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

> ...distinct but able to interbreed

I mean people won't like the idea but that's not my point; what you describe variety in superficial traits while maintaining common traits

Applied to humans; skin color, eyes, dwarfism, hypertrichosis... can still interbreed

When it comes to categorization and taxonomy in leaky abstractions like languages the boundaries get a bit hand wavy and usually land on whatever fits the prevailing social desirability bias of the day

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#28

Post by like_any_other »

yabutlivnWoods wrote: post #27
like_any_other wrote: post #7

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

> ...distinct but able to interbreed I mean people won't like the idea but that's not my point; what you describe variety in superficial traits while maintaining common traits Applied to humans; skin color, eyes, dwarfism, hypertrichosis... can still interbreed When it comes to categorization and taxonomy in leaky abstractions like languages the boundaries get a bit hand wavy and usually land on whatever fits the pre…

> you describe variety in superficial traits

The same selection pressures that produced the variety of "superficial" traits also act on "non-superficial" traits - nature does not recognize this distinction.

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#29

Post by AlotOfReading »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #26
AlotOfReading wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason no one wants to talk is that these discussions are always co-opted by racists wanting to affirm their beliefs, regardless of the underlying science. Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race.

>Reich in particular is borderline deliberate about attracting those sorts with his lab's research, because of how badly he chooses to handle the topic and terminology of race. Sorry, do you have any examples? His views that I've read [0, 1] are scientifically rigorous and terminologically precise, deftly navigating the politics that some consider extremely controversial. To wit, one of my favorite passages from [1],…

It's unfortunate that the URL happens to be buzzfeed, but there was an open letter to Reich by other academics about his terminology in the book you're quoting [0]. The short of it is that social categorizations we believe in like race intersect with genetics in a very complicated way. Reich is a world-class expert in genetics. He simply commits the same error as many other other experts in discounting the complexity of subjects he's adjacent to, but not directly an expert in.

I get that this is a high standard to hold him to (and I sure as heck don't meet it myself), but he should do better given his visibility in public discourse.

[0] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bfopinion/race-genetics...

Re: Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

#30

Post by api »

like_any_other wrote: post #7

Is there any species, other than humans, that is found all across the globe (i.e. geographically separated), and has not differentiated into subspecies? Wolves, elephants, tigers, bears, and foxes have all been categorized into multiple subspecies each, distinct but able to interbreed.

Not many. Part of why we are like this is extreme mobility. Even before modern times we were always good at getting around and seem to have a desire to roam. Or at least enough of us do to mix up those gene pools.
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