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Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

dbreunig.com

21–30 of 230 posts

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#21
post #14

I've said for decades that, in principle , cybersecurity is advantage defender. The defender has to leave a hole. The attackers have to find it. We just live in a world with so many holes that dedicated attackers rarely end up bottlenecked on finding holes, so in practice it ends up advantage attacker. There is at least a possibility that a code base can be secured by a (practically) finite number of tokens until the…

>in principle, cybersecurity is advantage defender

I disagree.

The defender must be right every single time. The attacker only has to get lucky and thanks to scale they can do that every day all day in most large organizations.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#22
post #14

I've said for decades that, in principle , cybersecurity is advantage defender. The defender has to leave a hole. The attackers have to find it. We just live in a world with so many holes that dedicated attackers rarely end up bottlenecked on finding holes, so in practice it ends up advantage attacker. There is at least a possibility that a code base can be secured by a (practically) finite number of tokens until the…

>in principle, cybersecurity is advantage defender I disagree. The defender must be right every single time. The attacker only has to get lucky and thanks to scale they can do that every day all day in most large organizations.

Well, the attacker has something to lose too. It's not like the defender has to be perfect or else attacks will just happen, it takes time/money to invest in attacking.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#25
post #20

The article heavily quotes the "AI Security Institute" as a third-party analysis. It was the first I heard of them, so I looked up their about page, and it appears to be primarily people from the AI industry (former Deepmind/OpenAI staff, etc.), with no folks from the security industry mentioned. So while the security landscape is clearly evolving (cf. also Big Sleep and Project Zero), the conclusion of "to harden a…

I would be interested in which notable security researchers you can find to take the other side of this argument. I don't know anything about the "AI Security Institute", but they're saying something broadly mirrored by security researchers. From what I can see, the "debate" in the actual practitioner community is whether frontier models are merely as big a deal as fuzzing was, or something signficantly bigger. Fuzzing was a profound shift in vulnerability research.

(Fan of your writing, btw.)

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#26

Relevant Tony Hoare quote: “There are two approaches to software design: make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, or make it so complex there are no obvious deficiencies”.

I think this is so relevant, and thank you for posting this.

Of course it's trivially NOT true that you can defend against all exploits by making your system sufficiently compact and clean, but you can certainly have a big impact on the exploitable surface area.

I think it's a bit bizarre that it's implicitly assumed that all codebases are broken enough, that if you were to attack them sufficiently, you'll eventually find endlessly more issues.

Another analogy here is to fuzzing. A fuzzer can walk through all sorts of states of a program, but when it hits a password, it can't really push past that because it needs to search a space that is impossibly huge.

It's all well and good to try to exploit a program, but (as an example) if that program _robustly and very simply_ (the hard part!) says... that it only accepts messages from the network that are signed before it does ANYTHING else, you're going to have a hard time getting it to accept unsigned messages.

Admittedly, a lot of today's surfaces and software were built in a world where you could get away with a lot more laziness compared to this. But I could imagine, for example, a state of the world in which we're much more intentional about what we accept and even bring _into_ our threat environment. Similarly to the shift from network to endpoint security. There are for sure, uh, million systems right now with a threat model wildly larger than it needs to be.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#27
I'm curious to see if formally verified software will get more popular. I'm somewhat doubtful, since getting programmers to learn formally math is hard (rightfully so, but still sad). But, if LLMs could take over the drudgery of writing proofs in a lot of the cases, there might be something there.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#28
post #14

I've said for decades that, in principle , cybersecurity is advantage defender. The defender has to leave a hole. The attackers have to find it. We just live in a world with so many holes that dedicated attackers rarely end up bottlenecked on finding holes, so in practice it ends up advantage attacker. There is at least a possibility that a code base can be secured by a (practically) finite number of tokens until the…

>in principle, cybersecurity is advantage defender I disagree. The defender must be right every single time. The attacker only has to get lucky and thanks to scale they can do that every day all day in most large organizations.

My understanding of defense in depth is that it is a hedge against this. By using multiple uncorrelated layers (e.g. the security guard shouldn’t get sleepier when the bank vault is unlocked) you are transforming a problem of “the defender has to get it right every time” into “the attacker has to get through each of the layers at the same time”.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#29

There's still the question of access to the codebase. By all accounts, the best LLM cyber scanning approaches are really primitive - it's just a bash script that goes through every single file in the codebase and, for each one and runs a "find the vulns here" prompt. The attacker usually has even less access than this - in the beginning, they have network tools, an undocumented API, and maybe some binaries. You can d…

The problem, though, is that this turns "one of our developers was hit by a supply chain attack that never hit prod, we wiped their computer and rotated keys, and it's not like we're a big target for the attacker to make much use of anything they exfiltrated..." into "now our entire source code has been exfiltrated and, even with rudimentary line-by-line scanning, will be automatically audited for privilege escalation opportunities within hours."

Taken to an extreme, the end result is a dark forest. I don't like what that means for entrepreneurship generally.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#30

I'm curious to see if formally verified software will get more popular. I'm somewhat doubtful, since getting programmers to learn formally math is hard (rightfully so, but still sad). But, if LLMs could take over the drudgery of writing proofs in a lot of the cases, there might be something there.

I am so exhausted with being asked to learn difficult and frankly confusing topics - the fact that it is so hard and so humbling to learn these topics is exactly why everyone is so happy to let AI think about formal programming and I can focus on getting Jersey Shore season 2 loaded into my Plex server. It's the one where Pauly D breaks up with Shelli
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