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WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

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Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#21

Post by tialaramex »

john_strinlai wrote: post #7
anonymous908213 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incompetence is always more likely than malice. "Incompetence" of this degree is malice . It is actively malicious to create a system that automatically locks people out of their accounts with absolutely no possibility for human review or recourse short of getting traction in the media. "No sir, I didn't grind those orphans up. It was this orphan grinding machine I made that did it, teehee!"

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

Where possible I recommend not caring because figuring out whether malice was present is difficult and you can likely address a problem without needing to be sure.

For example by creating working processes which never end up "accidentally" causing awful outcomes. This is sometimes more expensive, but we should ensure that the resulting lack of goodwill if you don't is unaffordable.

Worst case there is malice and you've now made it more difficult to hide the malice so you've at least made things easier for those who remain committed to looking for malice, including criminal prosecutors.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#22

Post by john_strinlai »

tialaramex wrote: post #21
john_strinlai wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

Where possible I recommend not caring because figuring out whether malice was present is difficult and you can likely address a problem without needing to be sure. For example by creating working processes which never end up "accidentally" causing awful outcomes. This is sometimes more expensive, but we should ensure that the resulting lack of goodwill if you don't is unaffordable. Worst case there is malice and you'…

>Worst case there is malice and you've now made it more difficult to hide the malice so you've at least made things easier for those who remain committed to looking for malice, including criminal prosecutors.

i am quoting the maintainer of the project. take it up with them if you think microsoft coordinated a directed attack on their project.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#23

Post by sammy2255 »

zx2c4 wrote: post #3

As I mentioned in the mailing list post, the Microsoft paperwork shuffling matter got dealt with rather quickly, following all the attention the HN thread from the other day got. And now we're finally out with an update! NT programming is a lot of fun, though this release was quite challenging, because of all of the toolchain updates. On the plus side, we got to remove pre-Win10 support -- https://lists.zx2c4.com/pip…

Good to know everything was resolved, but did you ever find out why your signing account was suspended? That's not something you brush off as haha silly Microsoft..

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#24

Post by trinsic2 »

john_strinlai wrote: post #2

> The comments that followed were a bit off the rails. There's no conspiracy here from Microsoft. But the Internet discussion wound up catching the attention of Microsoft, and a day later, the account was unblocked, and all was well. I think this is just a case of bureaucratic processes getting a bit out of hand, which Microsoft was able to easily remedy. I don't think there's been any malice or conspiracy or anythin…

With the way things are going right now with all the corruption in governments and corporations were way past the point of giving the benefit of the doubt. These organizations are clearly making changes to their OS's to slowly remove user control.

Everything should be treat as suspicious moving forward and I am glad of the skepticism.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#25

Post by x0x0 »

c0l0 wrote: post #12

As a wireguard user myself (even on the lone Windows machine that I still begrundingly have), I am happy that this problem could have been resolved. I am just wondering - if there had not been this kind of public outcry and outrage that Mr. Donenfeld discounts in his announcement message, would the issue have been fixed by now? What are individual developers of "lesser" (less important, less visible, less used) softw…

I got a modestly-similar situation resolved by buying a support package and spending 4+ hours across ... not sure, but probably 4-5 support calls? It's been 5 years. If memory serves it was the $200/mo support package for Azure.

In retrospect, I should have not spent 3 weeks trying to get their incompetent software to work and just gone straight to phone calls. And at least in my case, the support agents seemed broadly unfamiliar, but seemed to have access to higher-priority internal case submission which did finally get to someone who could fix my issue.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#26

Post by trinsic2 »

john_strinlai wrote: post #17
r14c wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, but at a certain point negligent incompetence is directly harmful and the motives or lack thereof are just context.

"just context" is important. i get that everyone has a frothing-at-the-mouth extreme hatred to microsoft and its employees. but microsoft did not say "fuck jason, fuck wireguard, lets try and shut that down". that would be a way different story.

It doesn't matter. They are doing things that are clearly hostile to users, they should pay dearly for it.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#27

Post by john_strinlai »

trinsic2 wrote: post #26
john_strinlai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"just context" is important. i get that everyone has a frothing-at-the-mouth extreme hatred to microsoft and its employees. but microsoft did not say "fuck jason, fuck wireguard, lets try and shut that down". that would be a way different story.

It doesn't matter. They are doing things that are clearly hostile to users, they should pay dearly for it.

get mad at the shitty stuff they do (there is a lot!), not the fictitious things people come up with in hn comments.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#28

Post by Xunjin »

sammy2255 wrote: post #23
zx2c4 wrote: post #3

As I mentioned in the mailing list post, the Microsoft paperwork shuffling matter got dealt with rather quickly, following all the attention the HN thread from the other day got. And now we're finally out with an update! NT programming is a lot of fun, though this release was quite challenging, because of all of the toolchain updates. On the plus side, we got to remove pre-Win10 support -- https://lists.zx2c4.com/pip…

Good to know everything was resolved, but did you ever find out why your signing account was suspended? That's not something you brush off as haha silly Microsoft..

They should definitely put up a statement addressing it. Moreover what they plan in the future to avoid such traumatic event, this is not a “simple sign program”, this touches fundamental parts of the OS.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#29

Post by sscaryterry »

trinsic2 wrote: post #24
john_strinlai wrote: post #2

> The comments that followed were a bit off the rails. There's no conspiracy here from Microsoft. But the Internet discussion wound up catching the attention of Microsoft, and a day later, the account was unblocked, and all was well. I think this is just a case of bureaucratic processes getting a bit out of hand, which Microsoft was able to easily remedy. I don't think there's been any malice or conspiracy or anythin…

With the way things are going right now with all the corruption in governments and corporations were way past the point of giving the benefit of the doubt. These organizations are clearly making changes to their OS's to slowly remove user control. Everything should be treat as suspicious moving forward and I am glad of the skepticism.

The question is, did they notify the user that the account was blocked, or was it done silently? My money is on the latter, obviously I don’t know, just my guess. Was there a reason? Blocked is semantically harsher, than it has been disabled.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#30

Post by Leherenn »

sammy2255 wrote: post #23
zx2c4 wrote: post #3

As I mentioned in the mailing list post, the Microsoft paperwork shuffling matter got dealt with rather quickly, following all the attention the HN thread from the other day got. And now we're finally out with an update! NT programming is a lot of fun, though this release was quite challenging, because of all of the toolchain updates. On the plus side, we got to remove pre-Win10 support -- https://lists.zx2c4.com/pip…

Good to know everything was resolved, but did you ever find out why your signing account was suspended? That's not something you brush off as haha silly Microsoft..

Apparently it's quite widespread, so I would assume a bug on their side. That's what support seemed to imply at least. We're still blocked at my company for one month+ now.
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