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Gender Equality and Work

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Re: Gender Equality and Work

#21

Post by UncleMeat »

logicchains wrote: post #10
logicchains wrote: post #7

We'd only expect to see wage equality if women had exactly the same job preferences as men, which empirically is absolutely not the case.

To whoever downvoted this, I'd be interested to see your sources showing that women do in fact have the same job preferences as men. Because every study I've seen shows that their career preferences differ. Or do you genuinely not understand that if women on average have a preferences for fields that pay less, they'll earn less on average?

Why do those careers pay less?

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#22

Post by leereeves »

lysium wrote: post #16
logicchains wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To whoever downvoted this, I'd be interested to see your sources showing that women do in fact have the same job preferences as men. Because every study I've seen shows that their career preferences differ. Or do you genuinely not understand that if women on average have a preferences for fields that pay less, they'll earn less on average?

I think the argument is the other way around: fields that women prefer pay less, ie. the field pays less because women prefer it. I don’t share that argument, I just wanted to point it out.

Or alternatively, men prefer careers because they pay more, regardless of other criteria, so they choose high paying fields more often.

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#23

Post by snapplebobapple »

mschempp wrote: post #13

As a father, I really can't understand how every article about this topic talks about as if fathers and mothers are just interchangeable. We are not. Mothers carry their child for ~9 months, they give birth to that child. The bond between a mother and her freshly born child is bigger than that of the father. Of course fathers are very important too, and yes fathers should spend more Time with their children in genera…

It's not that hard to understand. The Overton window has been successfully manipulated by butt hurt commies at universities (that no longer call themselves commies, they call themselves * studies usually and converted from economic class to a fractured mix of dichotomies based on whatever they think they can exploit at the time). This means truly bonkers nonsense permeates university and society. At the same time we neutered the antitrust law won out of the last billionaire baron build up in the name of the free market (while ignoring that the natural outcome of the free market is monopoly and we need antitrust to break up market power abusers). So in that context we have insane people and billionaires (who also may be insane) pushing their own interests an the average to above average segment of society that just wants to have their 2-3 kids and be comfortable get steamrolled.

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#24

Post by paulddraper »

UncleMeat wrote: post #20
scarmig wrote: post #12

As always, the OECD is leaving out other massive gaps. For instance, the working hour gap: even if you limit yourself to the class of full time workers, men work more hours than do women. There's the work satisfaction gap: women work in jobs that offer them more work satisfaction than men. There's the commute gap: men spend more time in their commutes per week than women do. There's the retirement gap: full time wome…

This would make more sense if it wasn't related to children. Women aren't just working fewer hours to relax. They work fewer hours because society demands that they do a whole extra job of raising children.

“Society” also demands that men earn more money than women by the measure

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#25

Post by scarmig »

UncleMeat wrote: post #20
scarmig wrote: post #12

As always, the OECD is leaving out other massive gaps. For instance, the working hour gap: even if you limit yourself to the class of full time workers, men work more hours than do women. There's the work satisfaction gap: women work in jobs that offer them more work satisfaction than men. There's the commute gap: men spend more time in their commutes per week than women do. There's the retirement gap: full time wome…

This would make more sense if it wasn't related to children. Women aren't just working fewer hours to relax. They work fewer hours because society demands that they do a whole extra job of raising children.

These also hold for single, childless men and women. But that's almost besides the point: you can just as well say that men work more hours because society demands they sacrifice their well-being to earn more income.

The only reason your formulation gets more play in media is that there's a strong social bias ascribing hypoagency to women (so whatever unfair pressures they face are due to patriarchal oppression) and hyperagency to men (so whatever unfair pressures they face are their own fault).

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#26

Post by mschempp »

scarmig wrote: post #17
mschempp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is definitely social sexism being surfaced by the wage gap statistic, but it's against men, not women." I would say against both genders.

It is more complicated than I let on and not as simple as class X is victimized. However, it's frustrating that this pushback happens only when a random internet comment is oversimplifying in the men have it worse direction and never when a massive institution is oversimplifying in the women have it worse direction.

Not sure where this "pushback" comment is directed at, but I was not trying to Push back - I am agreeing with you in general.

Just because institutions are oversimplifying doesn't mean we have to

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#27

Post by mschempp »

Most of the gender pay gap can be attributed to children: See https://www.henrikkleven.com/research/published/kleven-landa...

On page 43, it shows very clearly, that women who do not have children have almost no earnings gap.

Society can "fix" this in two ways: - introduce the same penalty for fathers, so that both earn less - which would IMHO lead to even less children - lift up families/mothers and help women not experience this gap, by having full time high quality child Care, have laws that allow mothers to take their children to Work, etc etc.

Second one is much harder to accomplish, because it costs money and time and effort.

The first one is Just forcing fathers to stay at home while mothers go back to Work.

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#28

Post by pixxel »

UncleMeat wrote: post #20
scarmig wrote: post #12

As always, the OECD is leaving out other massive gaps. For instance, the working hour gap: even if you limit yourself to the class of full time workers, men work more hours than do women. There's the work satisfaction gap: women work in jobs that offer them more work satisfaction than men. There's the commute gap: men spend more time in their commutes per week than women do. There's the retirement gap: full time wome…

This would make more sense if it wasn't related to children. Women aren't just working fewer hours to relax. They work fewer hours because society demands that they do a whole extra job of raising children.

[dead]

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#29

Post by snapplebobapple »

mschempp wrote: post #27

Most of the gender pay gap can be attributed to children: See https://www.henrikkleven.com/research/published/kleven-landa... On page 43, it shows very clearly, that women who do not have children have almost no earnings gap. Society can "fix" this in two ways: - introduce the same penalty for fathers, so that both earn less - which would IMHO lead to even less children - lift up families/mothers and help women not e…

I don't think that's the right context to put this in. The correct context would be that families that have children face costs associated with having kids and the monetary portion of those costs seems to express themselves disproportionately as a decrease in the woman's earnings. Those costs probably represent a real decrease in the value of labor so "fixing it" might push us further from an optimal outcome, not closer.

Re: Gender Equality and Work

#30

Post by mschempp »

snapplebobapple wrote: post #29
mschempp wrote: post #27

Most of the gender pay gap can be attributed to children: See https://www.henrikkleven.com/research/published/kleven-landa... On page 43, it shows very clearly, that women who do not have children have almost no earnings gap. Society can "fix" this in two ways: - introduce the same penalty for fathers, so that both earn less - which would IMHO lead to even less children - lift up families/mothers and help women not e…

I don't think that's the right context to put this in. The correct context would be that families that have children face costs associated with having kids and the monetary portion of those costs seems to express themselves disproportionately as a decrease in the woman's earnings. Those costs probably represent a real decrease in the value of labor so "fixing it" might push us further from an optimal outcome, not clo…

Not sure I understand you correctly, but the study I linked shows that mother's earnings drop significantly after the First child. That has nothing to do with the significant monetary cost of children, which are added on top of that.
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