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Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

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Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#21

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

oa335 wrote: post #10

I would be interested to hear others experiences with running these types of groups. We’ve tried this a couple of times at my current job and both times it’s petered out - people don’t do the assigned reading and then just stop attending. Any suggestions on how to keep such a group alive?

I lead a book club once (Designing Data Intensive Applications)- read a chapter and meet every two weeks. Was a real flop. Attendance remained high, but only one other person actually finished the book.

What was a real slap in the face - maybe a year after that book had concluded, someone told me I should lead another one about this other topic. She had not finished the first book, and she wanted me to regurgitate another to the group?

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#22

Post by oa335 »

Foe wrote: post #8
smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

Good question. Most people read the paper on their own time, and we meet over lunch. The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block. I've found that the people who show up are the ones who are genuinely curious and would be reading this stuff anyway (and sometimes just need a commitment/accountability to do it). Having a group gives them a reason to do it on a schedule.

> The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block

How exactly are the meetings structured? I.e is someone leading discussions? Does each person go around and share thoughts? Etc

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#23

Post by oa335 »

Foe wrote: post #13
SegfaultSeagull wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is great and congrats on the success. Many years ago I tried starting a cybersecurity reading group in my city since the startup I was working at was small and people there weren’t interested in that topic. I got a lot of very green, aspiring and non-professionals to show up. We couldn’t really agree on where to start and people had different ideas of where to focus or even how much they wanted to contribute. Mo…

Thank you! I think the biggest factor for us was that most attendees already had some technical baseline. That makes it way easier to pick papers and have productive discussions. A cross-experience group sounds much harder. We occasionally have non-technical people who attend (e.g., designers), but they usually are very eager to learn. The guided series format might have helped in your case, where you pick the topic…

> I think the biggest factor for us was that most attendees already had some technical baseline. That makes it way easier to pick papers and have productive discussions.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

How do you suss out peoples technical aptitude, and what was the minimum level you were looking for?

How were your discussions structured?

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#24

Post by aliher1911 »

thi2 wrote: post #15
Foe wrote: post #2

Hi HN, I've been organizing a systems reading group at Microsoft for five years now. I wrote down some takeaways on what worked (and what didn't). I'd love to hear if anyone else has successfully kept an engineering reading group alive at their company, or if you have any favorite systems papers we should add to our list!

Any tipps on finding interesting and valuable papers?

Not author, but in the past I was just going through papers on biggest conferences for the last year and checked what sounded interesting for my own education. But it was a bit of a chore. What I tried now is use gemini thinking research and asked it to do just that, go through main software/hardware conferences for last 3 years, find me papers on the topics of interest and give summary and links. The result is pretty good!

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#25

Post by userbinator »

nico wrote: post #9
eldenring wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean by menial coding but all my employers have supported this in the past. This was a variety of companies, big tech, startups, etc. I think its more likely your employer is the outlier.

I’ve been scolded for reading books and documentation for the tasks and software I was asked to build (at a startup) during my regular work hours No company I’ve worked at has ever had dedicated time for reading papers or articles Maybe I’ve only worked at outliers?

All the companies I've worked at implicitly assume that you're supposed to use your working hours for more than just coding, including learning what you need for the task at hand, although if you're looking at very beginner material that might raise some suspicion.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#27

Post by _kulang »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #21
oa335 wrote: post #10

I would be interested to hear others experiences with running these types of groups. We’ve tried this a couple of times at my current job and both times it’s petered out - people don’t do the assigned reading and then just stop attending. Any suggestions on how to keep such a group alive?

I lead a book club once (Designing Data Intensive Applications)- read a chapter and meet every two weeks. Was a real flop. Attendance remained high, but only one other person actually finished the book. What was a real slap in the face - maybe a year after that book had concluded, someone told me I should lead another one about this other topic. She had not finished the first book, and she wanted me to regurgitate an…

Maybe there was value in the discussions that didn’t require the reading? But running seminars isn’t hobby material. If this was happening at my work, I may skim or not even read parts of the book, and still attend discussions.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#28

Post by munchbunny »

smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

I sneak thirty minutes in here and there for it regardless of my manager. If you work, say, 40-45 hours a week, you’re probably doing 20 hours of true focused productivity. It’s easier to borrow here and there from the other half of the time to flip through a paper or two.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#29

Post by tanjtanjtanj »

zihotki wrote: post #16
Foe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. Most people read the paper on their own time, and we meet over lunch. The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block. I've found that the people who show up are the ones who are genuinely curious and would be reading this stuff anyway (and sometimes just need a commitment/accountability to do it). Having a group gives them a reason to do it on a schedule.

That implies that you have a fixed time for lunch and also chat during lunch. I may be the minority but I prefer to eat when I'm hungry and focus on the food instead of chatting. And there is also allergies, as a celiac, I have big troubles eating together with others - they may accidently contaminate my food

I’m actually curious here, not trying to question your experience but does other people’s food regularly contaminate your food when you eat at the same table as them?

I’ve lived with a celiac sufferer before and I’ve never heard of something that extreme, but everyone’s different.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#30

Post by tayo42 »

zihotki wrote: post #16
Foe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. Most people read the paper on their own time, and we meet over lunch. The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block. I've found that the people who show up are the ones who are genuinely curious and would be reading this stuff anyway (and sometimes just need a commitment/accountability to do it). Having a group gives them a reason to do it on a schedule.

That implies that you have a fixed time for lunch and also chat during lunch. I may be the minority but I prefer to eat when I'm hungry and focus on the food instead of chatting. And there is also allergies, as a celiac, I have big troubles eating together with others - they may accidently contaminate my food

When I've seen this done, yeah you block a fixed time for a "meeting", durring lunch time.
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