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Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

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Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#21

Post by 9dev »

throw310822 wrote: post #14
9dev wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Sincerely, a German.

The sacralisation of the Holocaust and consequent "blasphemy laws" have been pushed in the public discourse not only in Germany but throughout Europe. Germany happens for obvious reasons to be the country most receptive to it. Sincerely, a European.

If we cannot agree that nobody should chant Nazi songs ever again, we have a very different set of values. This has nothing to do with blasphemy, but respect for the millions senselessly killed not even a hundred years ago. Look around you: People are rediscovering fascism and nationalism as seducingly simple answers to complex questions. There's a reason we spent decades to think about ways to prevent this from happening again.

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#22

Post by throw310822 »

9dev wrote: post #21
throw310822 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sacralisation of the Holocaust and consequent "blasphemy laws" have been pushed in the public discourse not only in Germany but throughout Europe. Germany happens for obvious reasons to be the country most receptive to it. Sincerely, a European.

If we cannot agree that nobody should chant Nazi songs ever again, we have a very different set of values. This has nothing to do with blasphemy, but respect for the millions senselessly killed not even a hundred years ago. Look around you: People are rediscovering fascism and nationalism as seducingly simple answers to complex questions. There's a reason we spent decades to think about ways to prevent this from happ…

> If we cannot agree that nobody should chant Nazi songs ever again

This is a strawman, we agree on this and this discussion is about someone being investigated in Germany for using Hitler's picture to attack and criticise another dictator. (Though to be true, I am more concerned about people acting as nazis, whatever songs from whatever country they might be chanting).

> People are rediscovering fascism and nationalism as seducingly simple answers to complex questions

I agree, but I think that this is, also, the result of turning the memory of the past in a set of empty rituals that are used to secure the exact opposite of their stated goal: continued support for the oppressors of today and open, shameless contempt for their victims.

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#23

Post by 9dev »

throw310822 wrote: post #22
9dev wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we cannot agree that nobody should chant Nazi songs ever again, we have a very different set of values. This has nothing to do with blasphemy, but respect for the millions senselessly killed not even a hundred years ago. Look around you: People are rediscovering fascism and nationalism as seducingly simple answers to complex questions. There's a reason we spent decades to think about ways to prevent this from happ…

> If we cannot agree that nobody should chant Nazi songs ever again This is a strawman, we agree on this and this discussion is about someone being investigated in Germany for using Hitler's picture to attack and criticise another dictator . (Though to be true, I am more concerned about people acting as nazis, whatever songs from whatever country they might be chanting). > People are rediscovering fascism and nationa…

> This is a strawman, we agree on this

I'm not sure we are, given that this specific thread is about some people claiming Holocaust remembrance (and German limits to free speech when it comes to that topic) is akin to a religion, which doubts it at best and mocks it at worst.

> someone being investigated in Germany for using Hitler's picture to attack and criticise another dictator.

That is not what happened though. The Swastika is a prohibited symbol in Germany for a reason. Also, this investigation is pretty much guaranteed to be dropped because it's obvious to any sane person that Mr. Zitelmann did nothing wrong.

But using this incident to drag down any and all nuance around the German way of remembering the Holocaust isn't appropriate either.

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#24

Post by jh54 »

i don’t see it like that. he could have just crossed the swastika and it wouldn’t have been a problem. it is common knowledge in germany that you are not allowed to use any nazi symbols. wether some putin supporter reported him to a police Meldestellen website doesn’t matter because what he did is illegal in germany. and it’s illegal for a good reason. the symbols played their part in forming a volksgeist. just look at the maga hat. it’s straight up illegal because there was so much nazi symbolism left after the 2nd war that the us/uk/france had to radically clean it no questions asked and no exceptions made

also it’s not illegal if the image is for educational or informational purposes so maybe he just could have claimed that. no reason to should “censorship” when it’s literally just a swastica or nazi greeting you can’t do in public.

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#25

Post by [deleted] »

jh54 wrote: post #24

i don’t see it like that. he could have just crossed the swastika and it wouldn’t have been a problem. it is common knowledge in germany that you are not allowed to use any nazi symbols. wether some putin supporter reported him to a police Meldestellen website doesn’t matter because what he did is illegal in germany. and it’s illegal for a good reason. the symbols played their part in forming a volksgeist. just look…

[deleted]

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#26

Post by bigbadfeline »

sunaookami wrote: post #8

Yeah the oppression of speech in Germany is depressing, you have to be careful of what you write online or you get one of the Meldestellen on your ass (government-funded NGOs) and they will want to destroy your life. There were a lot of high-profile cases in the last six years. Applauded by the media (because they "combat hate speech") and enabled by the EU (thanks to the DSA Trusted Flagger program).

German politicians know what they are doing, they deserve praise for standing their ground, especially in these times of nationalist propaganda coming from the two richest and most heavily armed countries in the world... which would love to see nationalism take hold in Germany and proceed to ruin it together with all of Europe all over again.

The meme in question will be seen as a praise of Putin by those who admire Hitler and love to see his mad face in the media.

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#28

Post by CLPadvocate »

jh54 wrote: post #24

i don’t see it like that. he could have just crossed the swastika and it wouldn’t have been a problem. it is common knowledge in germany that you are not allowed to use any nazi symbols. wether some putin supporter reported him to a police Meldestellen website doesn’t matter because what he did is illegal in germany. and it’s illegal for a good reason. the symbols played their part in forming a volksgeist. just look…

crossed swastika would still be considered distribution of Nazi symbols. there was already a criminal case many years ago where (if I'm remembering it correctly) a student putting "no nazis"-stickers with a crossed swastika had to defend himself at the court.

but nevertheless - claiming to be victim of censorship is such a common trope nowadays, so maybe the author even reported himself to get some publicity. he is actually a pretty crappy - or let's say controversial - historian and is not really interesting enough for anyone to purposefully discredit him.

Re: Police Investigate German Historian for Hitler-Putin Meme

#29

Post by jh54 »

CLPadvocate wrote: post #28
jh54 wrote: post #24

i don’t see it like that. he could have just crossed the swastika and it wouldn’t have been a problem. it is common knowledge in germany that you are not allowed to use any nazi symbols. wether some putin supporter reported him to a police Meldestellen website doesn’t matter because what he did is illegal in germany. and it’s illegal for a good reason. the symbols played their part in forming a volksgeist. just look…

crossed swastika would still be considered distribution of Nazi symbols. there was already a criminal case many years ago where (if I'm remembering it correctly) a student putting "no nazis"-stickers with a crossed swastika had to defend himself at the court. but nevertheless - claiming to be victim of censorship is such a common trope nowadays, so maybe the author even reported himself to get some publicity. he is a…

interesting, i didn’t know about that case, but i understand the courts decision that it’s just illegal to show no matter the intent, if it’s not educational
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