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FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

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Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#21

Post by throw0101d »

drewg123 wrote: post #6
sidkshatriya wrote: post #4

14.4 is a maintenance release. If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Why FreeBSD ? - Well manicured OS, excellent docs. More performant than OpenBSD in every way and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) - FreeBSD tends to have fewer features in almost all areas compared to Linux which makes it more approachable and more difficult to mess up. - Though it has fewer features, it still has…

If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Or just run -current in production, like we do. See https://people.freebsd.org/~gallatin/talks/OpenFest2023.pdf Or https://papers.freebsd.org/2019/fosdem/looney-netflix_and_fr...

> Or just run -current in production, like we do.[0]

If you develop, it's probably best to do that against current [1], but if I'm running a web, mail, file, database, etc, server there is IMHO very little advantage to doing so. Most folks aren't trying to push >400Gbps.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4TZxj-Dq7s

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ0mvmZtbaY

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#22

Post by throw0101d »

jmmv wrote: post #19
basemi wrote: post #2

> Bhyve virtual machines can now share a filesystem with the host via the new p9fs Nice!

Huh, in a point release? But excited to try it out ASAP! I haven’t made the leap to 15 on my server yet (in part because I can’t decide whether to go with pkgbase or not…), but sharing data more easily with VMs will surely be nice. What’s the performance like?

> Huh, in a point release?

MFCed (merged from current):

* https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=e97ad33a89a78f55280b...

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#23

Post by sidkshatriya »

compass_copium wrote: post #20
sidkshatriya wrote: post #4

14.4 is a maintenance release. If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Why FreeBSD ? - Well manicured OS, excellent docs. More performant than OpenBSD in every way and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) - FreeBSD tends to have fewer features in almost all areas compared to Linux which makes it more approachable and more difficult to mess up. - Though it has fewer features, it still has…

>Will increase your Linux skills because diversity always helps the human brain Is this still true, given how much runs through systemd now? I thought about trying out FreeBSD last time I got a new computer, but decided on sticking with Debian to help skill building on other Linux systems

Diversity of programming languages, operating systems, cultures, human languages, countries, music etc. always gives a fresh perspective I've found. You may go back to what you prefer at the end but it gives you learnings that are at a "higher level" :-)

> Is this still true, given how much runs through systemd now?

Yes, still true. On FreeBSD you will realize what complexity systemd might be hiding from you and what additional features it provides. BTW I don't actually like rc init on FreeBSD that much ! I feel that rc.d can learn a lot from more modern init systems like systemd, dinit etc. I don't like reading highly complex rc scripts !!

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#24

Post by bell-cot »

pisikesipelgas wrote: post #5
sidkshatriya wrote: post #4

14.4 is a maintenance release. If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Why FreeBSD ? - Well manicured OS, excellent docs. More performant than OpenBSD in every way and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) - FreeBSD tends to have fewer features in almost all areas compared to Linux which makes it more approachable and more difficult to mess up. - Though it has fewer features, it still has…

I heard, that BSD is dying...

"BSD is dying" has been a popular (at least with kids and trolls and Linux fans) jeer for the past three-ish decades.

The reality of it is kinda like "Buffalo Bills will win the Superbowl this year".

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#25

Post by linguae »

pisikesipelgas wrote: post #5
sidkshatriya wrote: post #4

14.4 is a maintenance release. If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Why FreeBSD ? - Well manicured OS, excellent docs. More performant than OpenBSD in every way and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) - FreeBSD tends to have fewer features in almost all areas compared to Linux which makes it more approachable and more difficult to mess up. - Though it has fewer features, it still has…

I heard, that BSD is dying...

I love the BSDs; I have the most experience with FreeBSD, I regularly use macOS, and lately I’ve been learning NetBSD due to its rumpkernel.

With that said, with the decline of commercial Unix and the dominance of Linux, POSIX, in my opinion, has become less important, and in its place Linux seems to be the standard. I prefer the BSDs to Linux due to its design and documentation, but Linux has better hardware support, and the FOSS ecosystem, especially the desktop, is increasingly embracing Linuxisms such as Wayland and systemd. The FOSS BSD ecosystems are too small to counter the Linuxization of the Unix ecosystem, and I feel that Apple does not pay much attention to the BSD side of macOS these days.

I don’t expect the BSDs to die, but I do believe they’ll need to find ways to adapt to an increasingly Linux-dominated FOSS ecosystem.

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#26

Post by justin66 »

dismalaf wrote: post #15
ux266478 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth mentioning that FreeBSD lives outside of Redhat's influence. If you find yourself lamenting the direction Linux is moving in, FreeBSD remains an attractive escape hatch. It's not perfect (rc.d is definitely not as nice as runit, it's still focusing on LVM filesystems for the future, last I tried to use OSS4 it had some issues), but I would be straight up lying to you if I implied these weren't kind of…

Ish. Most FreeBSD installs still make use of stuff like Wayland and a lot of Linux parts.

> a lot of Linux parts

Anything outside of the stuff required to make a graphical desktop work?

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#27

Post by sidkshatriya »

jmmv wrote: post #19
basemi wrote: post #2

> Bhyve virtual machines can now share a filesystem with the host via the new p9fs Nice!

Huh, in a point release? But excited to try it out ASAP! I haven’t made the leap to 15 on my server yet (in part because I can’t decide whether to go with pkgbase or not…), but sharing data more easily with VMs will surely be nice. What’s the performance like?

> in part because I can’t decide whether to go with pkgbase or not…

pkgbase is optional in FreeBSD 15 BTW.

One way to upgrade the base system and another to upgrade packages just feels inconsistent to me and pkgbase finally resolves that. I've not had any problems with pkgbase. I love it and would highly recommend it.

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#28

Post by antonyh »

My next rebuild is likely to move from Debian to openSUSE Tumbleweed or FreeBSD. They fit better with what I want in an OS used for development purposes (needing newer versions than provided by Debian stable).

However... the lack of Docker on BSD is a deal breaker for some of my uses, jumping through hoops is possible, and moving to Podman might work but looks complicated to set up.

On the other hand, Debian 14 will remove GTK2 which breaks other things.

There's always a compromise.

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#29

Post by jedberg »

sidkshatriya wrote: post #4

14.4 is a maintenance release. If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Why FreeBSD ? - Well manicured OS, excellent docs. More performant than OpenBSD in every way and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) - FreeBSD tends to have fewer features in almost all areas compared to Linux which makes it more approachable and more difficult to mess up. - Though it has fewer features, it still has…

> and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking)

I started using FreeBSD 26 years ago when I worked for Sendmail, who had a couple of core committers on staff or staff-adjacent. Back then the refrain was "it can't do nearly as much as Linux, but what it does do it's much better than Linux".

And specifically it was known that if you wanted the best possible networking stack, FreeBSD was the choice to make (And also why Netflix uses it, for the networking stack).

All this to say, is it true that Linux now has better network performance, or did you mistype that?

Re: FreeBSD 14.4-Release Announcement

#30

Post by sidkshatriya »

jedberg wrote: post #29
sidkshatriya wrote: post #4

14.4 is a maintenance release. If you're installing FreeBSD today, use 15.0 Why FreeBSD ? - Well manicured OS, excellent docs. More performant than OpenBSD in every way and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) - FreeBSD tends to have fewer features in almost all areas compared to Linux which makes it more approachable and more difficult to mess up. - Though it has fewer features, it still has…

> and approaches Linux performance in some areas (e.g. Networking) I started using FreeBSD 26 years ago when I worked for Sendmail, who had a couple of core committers on staff or staff-adjacent. Back then the refrain was "it can't do nearly as much as Linux, but what it does do it's much better than Linux". And specifically it was known that if you wanted the best possible networking stack, FreeBSD was the choice to…

The networking subsystem is probably the place where FreeBSD is most competitive with Linux.

Linux just supports so much more hardware capabilities and fancy ways of doing things (e.g. io_uring, bpf logic in kernel etc.) that an expertly setup and tuned Linux system will probably exceed the networking speed of FreeBSD and provide more features while doing so. I'm not a networking expert by any means but this is what my understanding is.

I use FreeBSD for mostly for taste and the other reasons I outlined in my detailed answer above even though Linux is superior performance wise.

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