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The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

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Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#21

Post by yiyu_earth »

defrost wrote: post #18
dirk94018 wrote: post #8

Hydrogen has been the future as long as I have been paying attention to electric cars. There are many problems with it, including Hydrogen is the smallest molecule. It leaks through seals, embrittles metals, and has terrible energy density by volume. You either compress it to 700 bar (heavy tanks), liquefy it at -253°C (energy-intensive), or store it in metal hydrides (heavy, slow release). Solid state batteries are…

The path of most interest to many is Renewables -> bulk hydrogen as storage -> electricity grid. The bulk storage method of interest is dissolved salt caverns: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47160599

[flagged]

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#22

Post by bruckie »

credit_guy wrote: post #17

This analysis does not account for side benefit of the oxygen. If you split water to get hydrogen, then for every kilogram of hydrogen you get, you also get 8 kg of oxygen. Liquid oxygen is not an expensive commodity, its market price is about $1/kg, but in this context this makes a difference. For example, in the first infographic, the cost of green hydrogen produced today is listed as £16.97 which is about $23. If…

The current market price is based on current supply and demand. Splitting water to create enough hydrogen for non-trivial fraction of the transportation sector would generate an enormous amount of oxygen. The price of oxygen would likely tank in that situation.

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#24

Post by Manuel_D »

nradov wrote: post #16
okanat wrote: post #10

Or -hear me out- we can put these long I beams on the ground and put some cables above. Then tie 50 trucks to each other and they can get whatever kind of electricity from anything you can make electricity out of.

Well we already have a lot of those, at least in North America (best freight rail system in the world), and it might make sense to build even more tracks in some areas. But rail will never be practical for time-sensitive cargo. It just takes too long to assemble a train and move cars through switching yards. We're always going to need a lot of trucks no matter what.

Nearly zero of the freight rail network in north America is electrified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_electrification_in_th...

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#25

Post by vardump »

numpad0 wrote: post #15

As much as I find H2 fuel cell technology - which is a type of a gas based electric battery with no moving parts - fascinating, I can't help but wonder if we would be better off just running hybrids on e-fuels. e-fuels are just low quality gasoline, IIUC, made by (waves hands) ethical means from thin air using electricity. They still generate NOx gases, but ICEs just take them as is, and they're much more energy dens…

Which batteries are unrecyclable?

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#26

Post by 0_____0 »

numpad0 wrote: post #15

As much as I find H2 fuel cell technology - which is a type of a gas based electric battery with no moving parts - fascinating, I can't help but wonder if we would be better off just running hybrids on e-fuels. e-fuels are just low quality gasoline, IIUC, made by (waves hands) ethical means from thin air using electricity. They still generate NOx gases, but ICEs just take them as is, and they're much more energy dens…

you sort of answered your own question here

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#28

Post by defrost »

yiyu_earth wrote: post #21
defrost wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The path of most interest to many is Renewables -> bulk hydrogen as storage -> electricity grid. The bulk storage method of interest is dissolved salt caverns: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47160599

[flagged]

The arena of pragmatic debate here is in the billion tonne / annum heavy haulage mineral resources sector.

The few big players are keen to drop fossil fuels for many reasons and have had the capital to invest in meaningful R&D for the past decades which is still ongoing.

They also have an advantage of fixed controlled routes and total infrastructure control over extraction, haulage, and shipping sites; power, rail, roads, et al.

Recent notes from that edge include:

* Fortescue says Rio Tinto wrong about electric trucks, admits hydrogen tech at “very early stage” - https://reneweconomy.com.au/fortescue-says-rio-tinto-wrong-a...

* BHP and Rio Tinto welcome first Caterpillar battery-electric haul trucks to the Pilbara - https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/releases/2025/bhp-and-rio-t...

and

* Andrew Forrest pivots on hydrogen trucks - https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/fortescue-and-rio-say-b...

Forrest being one of the more pro-hydrogen billionaires in the mix.

FWiW I watch all the approaches with interest and expect to see more Red Queen racing before any trophies go out.

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#29

Post by idiotsecant »

defrost wrote: post #18
dirk94018 wrote: post #8

Hydrogen has been the future as long as I have been paying attention to electric cars. There are many problems with it, including Hydrogen is the smallest molecule. It leaks through seals, embrittles metals, and has terrible energy density by volume. You either compress it to 700 bar (heavy tanks), liquefy it at -253°C (energy-intensive), or store it in metal hydrides (heavy, slow release). Solid state batteries are…

The path of most interest to many is Renewables -> bulk hydrogen as storage -> electricity grid. The bulk storage method of interest is dissolved salt caverns: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47160599

Bulk hydrogen makes a lot less sense than pumping water up a hill. We have thousands and thousands of sites throughout the country that would be great for pumped storage and require absolutely no advanced technology. They are buildable today.

Re: The Hydrogen Truck Problem Isn't the Truck

#30

Post by rfv6723 »

dirk94018 wrote: post #8

Hydrogen has been the future as long as I have been paying attention to electric cars. There are many problems with it, including Hydrogen is the smallest molecule. It leaks through seals, embrittles metals, and has terrible energy density by volume. You either compress it to 700 bar (heavy tanks), liquefy it at -253°C (energy-intensive), or store it in metal hydrides (heavy, slow release). Solid state batteries are…

Solid state batteries are overhyped because their production complexity makes them a pricing nightmare for the average consumer. Sodium ion batteries are the practical choice for short distance transport because they are affordable and charge incredibly fast.

When it comes to long distance shipping or aviation, the energy density of liquid fuel is simply too hard to beat. Fossil fuels will stay dominant for decades, likely evolving into carbon captured or bio derived alternatives rather than being replaced by batteries.

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