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Japanese Death Poems

secretorum.life

21–30 of 51 posts

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#21
post #15

As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted. The original Japanese of the first poem is: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 The translation on the site: > I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves. This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want vis…

I feel like trying to replicate the meter in English is a silly constraint

I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#22
In the topic of death poems, I consider "You Want It Darker" by Leonard Cohen a masterpiece. He was 83 with terminal cancer. Yet, this song captures both his wit & spirit at its height.

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#23
post #15

As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted. The original Japanese of the first poem is: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 The translation on the site: > I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves. This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want vis…

This is the general problem with literature and poetry especially. They're not entirely translatable.

- Languages are part of culture and they are historically conditioned, making them necessarily bounded and finite [0]. While the essential thing signified may be the same for corresponding words in two languages (snow vs. Schnee), there is variance in semantic emphasis, connotation, and symbolic significance. In other words, the pragmatic aspect of language is highly contextual and conditioned.

- Words can be used univocally, equivocally, or analogically, and there isn't necessarily a correspondence between these constellations across any two languages. But so much of wordplay trades on such constellations.

- The syntactic and phonetic features peculiar to a language - apart from the what is signified per se - is heavily exploited by poetry.

[0] This reminds me of words like the Greek λόγος (logos), which does not find a satisfactory counterpart in any language as far as I can tell. (Approximations are Tao, Ṛta, or Ma'at, for instance.) You see this difficulty in the translation of John 1 where it is usually rendered verbum or word, which have their own perfections, but fail to do justice to the richness of the original meaning of Logos in passages like John 1:1 and 1:3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." When you substitute "Word" with "Logos", you can clearly see how much more pregnant that message is, e.g., that, contrary to the pagan mythology of those John was addressing, in the beginning there was order, not chaos; that God is Reason; that everything that exists is caused by God and therefore fundamentally intelligible. (Curiously, the Latin Verbum is better than the Greek at emphasizing the procession of divine Reason as Second Person from the First Person in the Trinity.)

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#24
post #15

As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted. The original Japanese of the first poem is: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 The translation on the site: > I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves. This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want vis…

I feel like trying to replicate the meter in English is a silly constraint I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku

[deleted]

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#25
post #15

As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted. The original Japanese of the first poem is: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 The translation on the site: > I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves. This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want vis…

This is the general problem with literature and poetry especially. They're not entirely translatable. - Languages are part of culture and they are historically conditioned, making them necessarily bounded and finite [0]. While the essential thing signified may be the same for corresponding words in two languages ( snow vs. Schnee ), there is variance in semantic emphasis, connotation, and symbolic significance. In ot…

By "procession", do you allude to the filioque clause? Agreed on difficulty of translation as I follow Quine so think a language as a whole is the unit of meaning as opposed to any specific granular element.

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#26
post #6

Death is apparently snowy

I don't know whether there is a specific japanese cultural explanation, but in general it often was. In winter when it was cold, those who lacked the strength to go on, layed down in the snow to rest forever.

Everything dies in winter. And then is reborn. Everyone who lives in a cold climate knows deep in their bones that cold and winter are death.

Though if we're going to get stereotypical about national characteristics (a dangerous game) then what might be more specifically Japanese is the particularly heightened understanding of this cycle. Or at least, its expression in art, when in the west we might flinch away.

I'm currently reading Spring Snow, so probably some of Yukio Mishima is drifting into my thoughts here. (Explaining puns ruins them but there it is again: Yuki o. Snow.)

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#27
post #16
post #8

I only know a tiny corner of the language, but for things like this I really wish they'd cite the original Japanese. Precisely because the haiku is a constrained form, it is also an opportunity for ambiguity, double-meaning, and cases where a word may be translated with the same semantics but different connotations. By comparison, the gold standard for dealing with non-English poetry in English: https://www.perseus.t…

I am a native Japanese Original Kanji - hiragana works: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 How it sounds: Oh ke naki Yukano nishikiya chiri ko yo

In which case the "crimson carpet" appears to be the loose invention of the translator. The original just says "brocade" or I guess, "quilt", implying some sort of silk bed cover?

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#30
post #10
post #4

"A last fart: are these the leaves of my dream, vainly falling? In the original, the image of a dream is combined with the cruder image of passing wind.." Is the wind representing the fart here?

"Passing wind" is an English euphemism, the original does not use "kaze" (wind) but goes straight for "he" (fart). The original word order also puts the dream at the start and drops fart right at the end, which I think is funnier than putting it on the first line.

I particularly loved this one. I interpreted it as a man indulging in one last ephemeral vanity. A literal last fart in the whirlwind of life used as a metaphor to illustrate how useless mankind's boasts are next to the inevitability and finality of death
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