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Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

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Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#21

Post by leflambeur »

alephnerd wrote: post #20
leflambeur wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in wha…

> the NL never did achieve anything like it. > The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in what's today the 5th largest nation state by area. They also had to defend the longest coastline. Conquering multiple ethnic Malay kingdoms - a number of whom were armed and backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans and had access to gunpowders, nav…

do 99.9% of the people born there speak Dutch? When they became independent, were they 80%+ Reformed Dutch protestants?

I don't reject the notion that NL vastly influenced Indonesia but the impact is not even remotely similar to PT and Brazil.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#22

Post by alephnerd »

leflambeur wrote: post #21
alephnerd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the NL never did achieve anything like it. > The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in what's today the 5th largest nation state by area. They also had to defend the longest coastline. Conquering multiple ethnic Malay kingdoms - a number of whom were armed and backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans and had access to gunpowders, nav…

do 99.9% of the people born there speak Dutch? When they became independent, were they 80%+ Reformed Dutch protestants? I don't reject the notion that NL vastly influenced Indonesia but the impact is not even remotely similar to PT and Brazil.

Was Brazil inhabited by countries with access to gunpowder, naval yards, proto-industrialization, and allies with transcontinental empires? No.

It was largely Amerindians who were exterminated and genocided with ease.

Conquering empires that were near-peers technologically is different from settling a continent which was at the losing end of the Colombian exchange.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#23

Post by leflambeur »

alephnerd wrote: post #22
leflambeur wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do 99.9% of the people born there speak Dutch? When they became independent, were they 80%+ Reformed Dutch protestants? I don't reject the notion that NL vastly influenced Indonesia but the impact is not even remotely similar to PT and Brazil.

Was Brazil inhabited by countries with access to gunpowder, naval yards, proto-industrialization, and allies with transcontinental empires? No. It was largely Amerindians who were exterminated and genocided with ease. Conquering empires that were near-peers technologically is different from settling a continent which was at the losing end of the Colombian exchange.

You may want to look into the genetic composition of modern-day Brazilians to consider whether "Amerindians were exterminated" is a coherent way to represent it.

edit: we are just comparing 2 completely different models here. You're not wrong about some things, you are just talking about a different thing than I :)

edit 2: you are lacking information if you think that Brazilian Amerindians did not also partner with European powers (France and the NL itself comes to mind) against the Portuguese and it's somewhat amusing that you think that Portugal was never challenged on that vast territory by other powers.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#24

Post by fauria »

Spain was the first globalization, not Portugal. The article forgets to mention two key elements:

1) The Manila galeon[1], the first trading route connecting Europe, America and Asia. This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route).

2) The Real de a Ocho[2], the first global currency, used virtually everywhere including the US until the modern dollar replaced it in 1857. It still lives through the $ symbol, representing the Pillars of Hercules and the "Plus Ultra" script [3].

It also downplays the role of Spain in the first circumnavigation. Sure, Magellan was born in Portugal, but he sailed for the Spanish Crown. The expedition was financed by Spain, sailed Spanish ships and finished its trip commanded by a Spanish sailor (Juan Sebastián Elcano).

Finally, it is worth mentioning that the Spanish was not an empire of mere territorial possession, it was a civilization. Spain has currently 50 sites inscribed as UNESCO World Heritage [4], and from the ~150 sites in the Americas, ~50 were built by Spain. These includes entire cities, universities, hospitals, infrastructure, defenses and more [5].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGRn5qCAXBI

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plus_ultra

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_i...

[5] https://greatbritainandtheusatheirtruehistory.quora.com/33-c...

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#25

Post by alephnerd »

leflambeur wrote: post #23
alephnerd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Brazil inhabited by countries with access to gunpowder, naval yards, proto-industrialization, and allies with transcontinental empires? No. It was largely Amerindians who were exterminated and genocided with ease. Conquering empires that were near-peers technologically is different from settling a continent which was at the losing end of the Colombian exchange.

You may want to look into the genetic composition of modern-day Brazilians to consider whether "Amerindians were exterminated" is a coherent way to represent it. edit: we are just comparing 2 completely different models here. You're not wrong about some things, you are just talking about a different thing than I :) edit 2: you are lacking information if you think that Brazilian Amerindians did not also partner with E…

My point still stands. Their culture was completely decimated and they were largely replaced by European and African migrants, indentured servants, and slaves.

Subjugating a native people that lacked metalworking, gunpowder, and literacy is different from conquering multiple nations that had all of those and was backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#26

Post by leflambeur »

alephnerd wrote: post #25
leflambeur wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to look into the genetic composition of modern-day Brazilians to consider whether "Amerindians were exterminated" is a coherent way to represent it. edit: we are just comparing 2 completely different models here. You're not wrong about some things, you are just talking about a different thing than I :) edit 2: you are lacking information if you think that Brazilian Amerindians did not also partner with E…

My point still stands. Their culture was completely decimated and they were largely replaced by European and African migrants, indentured servants, and slaves. Subjugating a native people that lacked metalworking, gunpowder, and literacy is different from conquering multiple nations that had all of those and was backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans.

No, lol, that is not how that works. Your point is factually wrong, your point doesn't "stand".

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#27

Post by sigmar »

fauria wrote: post #24

Spain was the first globalization, not Portugal. The article forgets to mention two key elements: 1) The Manila galeon[1], the first trading route connecting Europe, America and Asia. This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route). 2) The Real de a Ocho[2], the first global currency, used virtually everywhere including the US until the modern dollar replaced it in 185…

>This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route).

You're saying because Portugal traded with Asia through the wrong ocean, it wasn't global? Seems like an odd metric.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#28

Post by hugodan »

fauria wrote: post #24

Spain was the first globalization, not Portugal. The article forgets to mention two key elements: 1) The Manila galeon[1], the first trading route connecting Europe, America and Asia. This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route). 2) The Real de a Ocho[2], the first global currency, used virtually everywhere including the US until the modern dollar replaced it in 185…

Spain didn't exist back then

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#29

Post by christkv »

alephnerd wrote: post #20
leflambeur wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in wha…

> the NL never did achieve anything like it. > The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in what's today the 5th largest nation state by area. They also had to defend the longest coastline. Conquering multiple ethnic Malay kingdoms - a number of whom were armed and backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans and had access to gunpowders, nav…

The Dutch had more in common with British East India company phase of the British expansion.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#30

Post by fauria »

sigmar wrote: post #27
fauria wrote: post #24

Spain was the first globalization, not Portugal. The article forgets to mention two key elements: 1) The Manila galeon[1], the first trading route connecting Europe, America and Asia. This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route). 2) The Real de a Ocho[2], the first global currency, used virtually everywhere including the US until the modern dollar replaced it in 185…

>This was the first trully global trade route (Portugual never established a trans-Pacific route). You're saying because Portugal traded with Asia through the wrong ocean, it wasn't global? Seems like an odd metric.

No, I'm sayng that Portugal never closed the circuit that led to a global trade route. They built a line between Europe and Asia, but Asia and America remained economically disconnected. It was that loop that Spain closed that enabled a global economy.
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