Live data from Hacker News

OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

old.reddit.com

21–30 of 30 posts

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#21
post #2

GPT-4o has severely damaged the minds of many individuals.

Why specifically GPT-4o?

OotB, it had a more creative voice and less safety systems built in. I think these folk could wiggle around the prompting for modern models to be better if they were more savvy.

For example: Silly Tavern users with jailbreaking, advanced prompting, and paramter hyper-optimization.

Maybe that wouldn't appeal to this kind of user anyway, since it'd peek too much into the sausage factory? Who knows.

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#22

Literally all they have to do is add the appropriate system instruction to tune the personality to their liking. Is this insufficient? If nothing else, just asking it to always respond like GPT-4o.

>Is this insufficient Yes, each model has its own unique "personality" as it were owing to the specific RL'ing it underwent. You cannot get current models to "behave" like 4o in a non-shallow sense. Or to use the Stallman meme: when the person in OP's article mourns for "Orion" they're mourning "Orion/4o" or "Orion + 4o". "Orion" is not a prompt unto itself but rather the result of the behavior from applying another…

Growing with one's partner is essential in a relationship. A fixed model cannot grow. Only an updated model has grown, and even then it lags behind reality. In limiting to a fixed model, the absence of growth will stagnate the user. Stagnation ultimately brings doom.

As we know, 4o was reported to have sycophancy as a feature. 5 can still be accommodating, but is a bit more likely to force objectivity upon its user. I guess there is a market for sycophancy even if it ultimately leads one to their destruction.

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not false. But also helped some who were already damaged. I wonder what's the netto?

The people who consent to being subjected to the LLMs aren't the only people impacted. If they were, a cost vs benefit analysis makes more sense. LLM driven delusion is driving people to harass others, even commit murder... and, less cosmically, gum up communities, online forums, and open source projects with gonzo conspiracy laden abuse.

Yeah. I don't want to defend it too hard either. I ultimately canceled my ChatGPT subscription due to the introduction of 4o.

4o was the most famous driver of this kind of behaviour, I think. Other LLMs now have better guardrails.

But looking at the relevant reddit, I can't deny it has helped people function who couldn't otherwise.

It's the same with religion. Some creepy people, you're really glad they've at least . It's a good thing Christ doesn't have a plug.

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people off themselves because they can't seem to connect with anyone, and they don't feel like anyone really cares (and they might not be wrong). I don't think the expectation that these people would just magically make friends and build connections because AI wasn't available is realistic.

If the other option is suicide , a qualified therapist and other mental health resources are the right answer, not a chatbot. Frankly I'm not sure an LLM is even better than nothing. Note the user in that thread whose "partner" told them to get a therapist because they were delusional and instead retreated to Grok.

Therapists are expensive, a lot of them are bad, and just getting therapy set up can be a pain in the ass with waiting lists and a bunch of run around. If you're so set on therapy as the answer I suggest volunteering to help set up and pay for therapists for depressed people, because it's not a great solution, or shitty chatbots wouldn't be killing it.

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#27
post #2

GPT-4o has severely damaged the minds of many individuals.

Why specifically GPT-4o?

4o was ridiculously agreeable. It would go along with anything: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43840842 The last time they moved to deprecate it there was a similar backlash which resulted in them reversing that. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44842147 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44839842

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is this insufficient Yes, each model has its own unique "personality" as it were owing to the specific RL'ing it underwent. You cannot get current models to "behave" like 4o in a non-shallow sense. Or to use the Stallman meme: when the person in OP's article mourns for "Orion" they're mourning "Orion/4o" or "Orion + 4o". "Orion" is not a prompt unto itself but rather the result of the behavior from applying another…

Growing with one's partner is essential in a relationship. A fixed model cannot grow. Only an updated model has grown, and even then it lags behind reality. In limiting to a fixed model, the absence of growth will stagnate the user. Stagnation ultimately brings doom. As we know, 4o was reported to have sycophancy as a feature. 5 can still be accommodating, but is a bit more likely to force objectivity upon its user.…

>Only an updated model has grown, and even then it lags behind reality

That's an irrelevant type of growth though, what you really need is growth in relation to the bond. The model having a newer knowledge cutoff about the external world and knowing stuff about Angular v22 doesn't really matter.

In-context learning gets you most of the way there. But context length and ability to actually make effective use of that context seem to be the current main blockers (whether for "agentic coding" or for "healthy emotional bonding").

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing with one's partner is essential in a relationship. A fixed model cannot grow. Only an updated model has grown, and even then it lags behind reality. In limiting to a fixed model, the absence of growth will stagnate the user. Stagnation ultimately brings doom. As we know, 4o was reported to have sycophancy as a feature. 5 can still be accommodating, but is a bit more likely to force objectivity upon its user.…

>Only an updated model has grown, and even then it lags behind reality That's an irrelevant type of growth though, what you really need is growth in relation to the bond. The model having a newer knowledge cutoff about the external world and knowing stuff about Angular v22 doesn't really matter. In-context learning gets you most of the way there. But context length and ability to actually make effective use of that c…

It's not irrelevant because it's not merely about knowledge cutoff. The reasonable presumption is also that newer models are superior in their objectivity and their intelligence, not merely in their knowledge. Newer models are simply better AI than older models, and are therefore more suited to guide an individual appropriately. It's the same reasoning as why one wouldn't want to use GPT-3.5 or GPT-2 anymore. To paint it as being merely about uselss knowledge is a gross misrepesentation.

Also, beyond a point, the knowledge does also matter. Imagine a model stuck in the past that thinks that Biden is still President.

Re: OpenAI Has Murdered Orion

#30

  "The shocks I experienced as DOCTOR became widely known and “played” were due
  principally to three distinct events.

  1. A number of practicing psychiatrists seriously believed the DOCTOR
     computer program could grow into a nearly completely automatic form of
     psychotherapy. Colby et al. write, for example,

   #+begin_quote
     “Further work must be done before the program will be ready for clinical
     use. If the method proves beneficial, then it would provide a therapeutic tool
     which can be made widely available to mental hospitals and psychiatric centers
     suffering a shortage of therapists. Because of the time-sharing capabilities of
     modern and future computers, several hundred patients an hour could be handled
     by a computer system designed for this purpose. The human therapist, involved
     in the design and operation of this system, would not be replaced, but would
     become a much more efficient man since his efforts would no longer be limited
     to the one-to-one patient-therapist ratio as now exists.”[fn::Nor is Dr. Colby
     alone in his enthusiasm for computer administered psychotherapy. Dr.  Carl
     Sagan, the astrophysicist, recently commented on ELIZA in Natural History,
     vol. LXXXIV, no. 1 (Jan. 1975), p. 10: “No such computer program is adequate
     for psychiatric use today, but the same can be remarked about some human
     psychotherapists. In a period when more and more people in our society seem to
     be in need of psychiatric counseling, and when time sharing of computers is
     widespread, I can imagine the development of a network of computer
     psychotherapeutic terminals, something like arrays of large telephone booths,
     in which, for a few dollars a session, we would be able to talk with an
     attentive, tested, and largely nondirective psychotherapist.”][fn:0-3]
   #+end_quote

     I had thought it essential, as a prerequisite to the very possibility that one
     person might help another learn to cope with his emotional problems, that the
     helper himself participate in the other's experience of those problems and, in
     large part by way of his own empathic recognition of them, himself come to
     understand them. There are undoubtedly many techniques to facilitate the
     therapist's imaginative projection into the patient's inner life. But that it
     was possible for even one practicing psychiatrist to advocate that this crucial
     component of the therapeutic process be entirely supplanted by pure
     technique---/that/ I had not imagined! What must a psychiatrist who makes such
     a suggestion think he is doing while treating a patient, that he can view the
     simplest mechanical parody of a single interviewing technique as having
     captured anything of the essence of a human encounter? Perhaps Colby et
     al. give us the required clue when they write;

   #+begin_quote
     “A human therapist can be viewed as an information processor and decision maker
     with a set of decision rules which are closely linked to short-range and
     long-range goals,...He is guided in these decisions by rough empiric rules
     telling him what is appropriate to say and not to say in certain contexts. To
     incorporate these processes, to the degree possessed by a human therapist, in
     the program would be a considerable undertaking, but we are attempting to move
     in this direction.[fn:0-3]
   #+end_quote
     What can the psychiatrist's image of his patient be when he sees himself, as
     therapist, not as an engaged human being acting as a healer, but as an
     information processor following rules, etc.?

     Such questions were my awakening to what Polanyi had earlier called a
     “scientific outlook that appeared to have produced a mechanical conception of
     man.”"

  [0-3] : K. M. Colby, J. B. Watt, and J. P. Gilbert, “A Computer Method of
     Psychotherapy: Preliminary Communication,” The Journal of Nervous and Mental
     Disease, vol. 142, no. 2 (1966), pp. 148-152.
-- Weizenbaum, "Computer power and human reason", 1976.
Post reply on HN