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Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

arstechnica.com

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Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#21

Post by anon7000 »

aspbee555 wrote: post #18
sandworm101 wrote: post #14

I am all for green energy, but these windfarms were designed years ago. Since then, solar has progressed in leaps whereas wind has not. Im not so sure that fighting the olds over wind farms is the fight worth winning. Let them cancel the wind farms if that means a free hand to develop solar.

solar only runs during the day and when it is not cloudy, wind farms can run constantly with low weather impact multiple energy sources are what is important to make up for where solar falls short. sure solar is amazing, but it will never replace everything on its own

Solar + battery is good enough & cheap enough (and recyclable enough). But agreed that multiple renewable energy sources aren’t a bad thing!

Solar + battery is just so good at staying stable and productive for decades with no moving parts, minimal maintenance, and unbeatable scalability

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#22

Post by fsckboy »

pjdesno wrote: post #9

In the 70s the oil companies were furious that Venezuela (if my understanding is correct) revoked their leases and forced them to abandon their equipment investments. That's basically what the administration was trying to do here, under a legal system which (unlike Venezuela in the 70s) is very keen on protecting corporate investment. It seems like a classic "takings" case.

the Venezuelan oil leases you are talking about was 1990s, not 1970s.

for Venezuelan oil leases to be comparable to wind farms you'd have to have the Venezuelan govt say "we are taking the leases away because we don't want any more offshore oil production", rather than "we are taking these leases away because you are rich and we want to pump the oil ourselves"

the cancelled Venezuelan oil leases were a taking, but that word is less useful in the case of wind farms. I would imagine firms with wind farm contracts would be made whole (i.e. get back lost investment, but not get back potential profit) but it's not a case of the wind farms being given to somebody else or those areas being put to some other use.

if you are "environmental" you might think it's a great loss not to pursue the wind approach, or that it's a great idea to shut down offshore drilling, but that's political not property ownership/taking.

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#23

Post by tzs »

sandworm101 wrote: post #14

I am all for green energy, but these windfarms were designed years ago. Since then, solar has progressed in leaps whereas wind has not. Im not so sure that fighting the olds over wind farms is the fight worth winning. Let them cancel the wind farms if that means a free hand to develop solar.

It doesn't mean a free hand to develop solar. The Trump administration hates solar, too, and is doing as much as it can to hinder solar development.

Also, wind and solar have different production patterns, such as how they perform seasonally, how weather affects them, and how they perform at different times of day. You are much better off including a good mix of them in your system.

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#25

Post by toomuchtodo »

softwaredoug wrote: post #12

If these projects ultimately end up canceled they’ll be the largest “mostly done” infrastructure projects to be cancelled. A huge waste. And a monument to US incompetency.

Well, judicial checks and balances should protect them until regime change, which is coming.

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#27

Post by anonymousDan »

defrost wrote: post #6
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treating offshore wind like ports and pipelines from a security POV makes sense, it's exactly what we do with offshore O&G. The rub is that securing offshore wind installations is an order of magnitude more resource-intensive than securing a deepwater rig, bc you're talking about a perimeter than spans 100's of square miles, not a single platform with a limited # of risers

From an attack PoV that's hundreds of square miles to destroy or disable many structures Vs taking out a single target. ie. They can nibble a bit at an array before you're onto them Vs everything gets thrown at a point source target.

What about some kind of mass underwater drone attack? Feels like it might be feasible in the not too distant future...

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#28

Post by Rapzid »

anon7000 wrote: post #21
aspbee555 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

solar only runs during the day and when it is not cloudy, wind farms can run constantly with low weather impact multiple energy sources are what is important to make up for where solar falls short. sure solar is amazing, but it will never replace everything on its own

Solar + battery is good enough & cheap enough (and recyclable enough). But agreed that multiple renewable energy sources aren’t a bad thing! Solar + battery is just so good at staying stable and productive for decades with no moving parts, minimal maintenance, and unbeatable scalability

The market realities don't pan out. Texas has a huge and diversified renewable energy sector. Wind was supplying nearly 45% of energy capacity last night, with solar providing close to 57% during its peak yesterday. Power storage discharge peaked around 13% and it's typically only used to round out capacity in the early morning and evening when peak demand coincides with low solar generation...

https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

And that's in Texas where there is tons of sun and wind. I would imagine markets where wind, and in particular off shore wind, could make a lot more sense compared to attempting 100% solar generation. If I had to wager, maybe where they are building offshore wind generation..

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#29

Post by ggm »

anonymousDan wrote: post #27
defrost wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an attack PoV that's hundreds of square miles to destroy or disable many structures Vs taking out a single target. ie. They can nibble a bit at an array before you're onto them Vs everything gets thrown at a point source target.

What about some kind of mass underwater drone attack? Feels like it might be feasible in the not too distant future...

Is that especially simpler than e.g. an attack on the above ground cabling systems by firing carbon fibre conducting wires over them, as the US is said to have done in the Iraq war? Not that I don't think underwater drones are a future risk, but the belief its a risk which can't be mitigated, or a worse risk than ones which exist onshore, seems a bit weak.

But none the less, yes. This would be a risk. Perhaps one which demands better drone detection and defence systems around wind turbines and O&G fields?

Re: Court orders restart of all US offshore wind power construction

#30

Post by ianburrell »

sandworm101 wrote: post #14

I am all for green energy, but these windfarms were designed years ago. Since then, solar has progressed in leaps whereas wind has not. Im not so sure that fighting the olds over wind farms is the fight worth winning. Let them cancel the wind farms if that means a free hand to develop solar.

Solar and wind are good complements. Solar works during the day and best on clear, windless days. Wind blows best during the night and on cloudy, stormy days. Solar is best in summer and wind in winter.

Wind also works better in some areas that don't have solar. UK has a lot of offshore wind, but less solar. The US Northeast has a lot of wind but lags behind on solar.

Wind has dropped significantly in price over the decades and is competitive in price with solar. I saw article about early Scottish wind farm being upgraded so that one new turbine equals the whole old farm.

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