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Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

sintef.no

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Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#21

Post by DangitBobby »

amazingman wrote: post #19
hnburnsy wrote: post #12

Related, TIL the US is effectively banning residential electric resistance water heaters in 2029, with heat pump water heaters being the only type that can meet the new standards. Users will see a 2-3x in cost difference and a 3 to 8 year payback on savings.

This is exactly the kind of thing government is for, even though it's missing the other half: subsidies. At the very least buying heat pumps for the next 5 years should be tax deductible. Even better: a $2000 or similar rebate.

That's probably exactly what will happen.

    Energy property - Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers

    Heat pumps that meet or exceed the CEE highest efficiency tier, not including any advanced tier, in effect at the beginning of the year when the property is installed, and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor for installation.

    Qualified property includes new:

    Electric or natural gas heat pumps
    Electric or natural gas heat pump water heaters
    Biomass stoves and boilers
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home...

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#22

Post by hnburnsy »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #15
hnburnsy wrote: post #12

Related, TIL the US is effectively banning residential electric resistance water heaters in 2029, with heat pump water heaters being the only type that can meet the new standards. Users will see a 2-3x in cost difference and a 3 to 8 year payback on savings.

Is that 2-3x before or after the plumber marks it up? What an exceptionally moronic thing to ban, the market solves this naturally. Resistance heaters are 100% efficient whatever fraction of the year is heating days. So if that's 1/2 the year and the water heater can't last 16yr because of water quality the heat pump heater will never pay you back. This reminds me a lot of the time some jerks in west coast desert sta…

Heat pump water heater (hybrid/HPWH, e.g., 50–65 gallon equivalent): Unit prices range from ~$1,500–$3,000+ (most common models $2,000–$2,500), with total installed costs $2,500–$5,000 (higher if electrical upgrades or space mods needed). Average retrofit/install often lands around $3,000–$4,000.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#23

Post by hnburnsy »

DangitBobby wrote: post #21
amazingman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of thing government is for, even though it's missing the other half: subsidies. At the very least buying heat pumps for the next 5 years should be tax deductible. Even better: a $2000 or similar rebate.

That's probably exactly what will happen. Energy property - Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers Heat pumps that meet or exceed the CEE highest efficiency tier, not including any advanced tier, in effect at the beginning of the year when the property is installed, and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor fo…

These are credits that only work if you have owe federal taxes and they cannot be carried forward. I've seen estimates that 40-45% of taxpayers owe 0 or close to 0.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#24

Post by schiffern »

Neywiny wrote: post #6

This is similar to nighthawkinlight's videos on phase change materials. It was very cool to see how his Ziploc bags of homemade goo helped regulate temperature.

In this work the authors use a ceramic-coated extruded aluminum heat spreader to improve thermal conductivity through the bulk PCM, but I wonder if the graphite flake+powder additive demonstrated recently by Tech Ingredients[1] would be a viable alternative? It might need a stabilizer (thickener) to prevent the ingredients from separating.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-41UF02vrU

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#25

Post by bilbo-b-baggins »

fy20 wrote: post #17
rekabis wrote: post #2

I would love to see a bus-sized version for year-long temperature moderation. Like, drop house heat into it during the summer so it can re-heat the house over the winter, and pull all the heat out of it by Spring so that it can cool the house over the summer. Bus sized because that amount of thermal mass is bound to take up a lot of space, but capable of being buried so that it doesn’t actually take up property space…

I ran the numbers for this a while ago. I live where we have proper winters (currently -22c). I wanted something simple just with solar thermal and water pumps (no heat pump). Sand batteries work at an industrial level, but for domestic use you want something simple so that means just water. A 100m3 (100,000 litres or 26,500 gallons) cylindrical water tank (approx 5x5m) buried and insulated with 50cm of XPS could pro…

So… store heat in an insulated swimming pool 10ft deep, 30ft wide, and 90ft long, at 185F, above the service temp for XPS foam, got it, ok. At least you could also use it to sous vide an entire cow.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#26

Post by sgc »

hnburnsy wrote: post #22
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that 2-3x before or after the plumber marks it up? What an exceptionally moronic thing to ban, the market solves this naturally. Resistance heaters are 100% efficient whatever fraction of the year is heating days. So if that's 1/2 the year and the water heater can't last 16yr because of water quality the heat pump heater will never pay you back. This reminds me a lot of the time some jerks in west coast desert sta…

Heat pump water heater (hybrid/HPWH, e.g., 50–65 gallon equivalent): Unit prices range from ~$1,500–$3,000+ (most common models $2,000–$2,500), with total installed costs $2,500–$5,000 (higher if electrical upgrades or space mods needed). Average retrofit/install often lands around $3,000–$4,000.

Electrical upgrades are almost always required, and price is more like 7k-9k around here. It's going to be seriously painful for a lot of people.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#27

Post by dashundchen »

sgc wrote: post #26
hnburnsy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat pump water heater (hybrid/HPWH, e.g., 50–65 gallon equivalent): Unit prices range from ~$1,500–$3,000+ (most common models $2,000–$2,500), with total installed costs $2,500–$5,000 (higher if electrical upgrades or space mods needed). Average retrofit/install often lands around $3,000–$4,000.

Electrical upgrades are almost always required, and price is more like 7k-9k around here. It's going to be seriously painful for a lot of people.

If you were in the market for an resistive electric heat pump, you likely had the service for it already. A heat pump version will almost always require less power.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#29

Post by ZeroGravitas »

chickenimprint wrote: post #11

So it's a large version of those rechargeable hand-warmers?

Yes, it's the same tech. There's been products on the market for a while even though this press release tries to spin it like it's new and linked to heat pumps.

Re: Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed

#30

Post by ZeroGravitas »

chickenbig wrote: post #28

Perhaps I am missing something; this product already exists as the Sunamp Thermino. https://sunamp.com/en-gb/hot-water-solutions-thermino-range/

It also exists, as described in the headline, as a tank of heated water.

The phase change stuff has positives like taking up less physical space but it's also a much less mature tech than storing hot water.

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