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Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

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Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#21

Post by orbital-decay »

locknitpicker wrote: post #16
eknkc wrote: post #2

Is the mechanical keyboard craze still going on? At some point everyone was talking about / showing off their mech keyboard in developer scene. I don’t think I’ve seen much in recent years. I myself went deep into that for a while. Got a couple of keyboards and now I have two Apple Magic Keyboards. Don’t even know where I stashed my mechanicals.

> Is the mechanical keyboard craze still going on? It depends on your definition of "craze". Mechanical keyboards are more popular than ever, and became mainstream to the point where nowadays they are just considered keyboards. Even Logitech sells whole product lines of mechanical keyboards, and even has specialized lines of mechanical keyboards. Also, multiple companies sell ergonomic keyboards that fall within the…

Utilitarian device to type on became an object of obsessive consumption, collection, customization, showing off, fashion (RGB lighting, forced mechanical over scissor distinction even though many people prefer the latter, etc). Yeah of course it's a craze, without scare quotes.

The same gear obsession happened to the gaming mice world, but it was much tamer by comparison.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#22

Post by adrian_b »

ortichic wrote: post #14

Does anyone know why alanlog optical switches never gained traction, but analog magnetic ones did? Sounds like optical ones should be cheaper to manufacture, with all the same benefits?

I believe that keys with optical switches are less reliable, being sensitive to things like sensor misalignment or dust.

I have not used any keyboard with optical switches, but several decades ago I have used keyboards with hall sensors, which had a superb quality and reliability, much better than anything that I have used later.

Sadly, I had to abandon the first keyboard that I have used with computers owned by me, which had Hall sensors, because it was not IBM PC compatible (its origin was in some DEC-compatible video terminal and I had used it with a Motorola MC68000 based PC, which I have replaced with a PC/AT clone, for which I had to use a compatible keyboard, of much lower quality).

Otherwise, I am certain that it would have remained perfectly functional until today, unlike the many keyboards that I had to replace since then, when too worn out.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#23

Post by dddw »

eknkc wrote: post #2

Is the mechanical keyboard craze still going on? At some point everyone was talking about / showing off their mech keyboard in developer scene. I don’t think I’ve seen much in recent years. I myself went deep into that for a while. Got a couple of keyboards and now I have two Apple Magic Keyboards. Don’t even know where I stashed my mechanicals.

It's less as hyped as during covid, but it's definitely still going strong. Its a hobby/collector thing. Cheaper than cars/watches/audio collecting.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#24

Post by adrian_b »

AlbertDenny wrote: post #20

This was a fun read. Hall effect switches especially feel like they came out of nowhere in the last couple years, but seeing them broken down like this makes the hype make more sense.

Keyboards with Hall effect switches have been frequently used many decades ago, before personal computers became dominant.

They were typically used in the more expensive models of video terminals that were used together with minicomputers or mainframes.

Personal computers used cheaper keyboards, to minimize the cost, so after everybody switched to using PCs the more expensive but better keyboards with Hall effect sensors have disappeared.

The keys with Hall effect sensors contain a special analog integrated circuit instead of metallic contacts. The IC is packaged similarly with a transistor, having 4 or sometimes only 3 pins that are soldered on the keyboard PCB.

So to make this kind of keyboard, you need a vendor for such an integrated circuit. Semiconductor IC vendors do not make such ICs, unless there is a market big enough for them.

During the seventies and the eighties, most IC vendors had such ICs in their catalog, but when the market for expensive keyboards disappeared, the production of such ICs has also stopped.

This has made more difficult for anyone to start making such keyboards, instead of other kinds of keyboards, because they must bet on selling enough of them, to be able to convince an IC vendor to make a batch of such ICs.

I have not seen any modern keyboard with Hall effect sensors, so I do not know whether they really use the kind of sensors made for keyboards that have been used originally. Perhaps they repurpose Hall sensors made for brushless DC motors, which are easily available anywhere, but they might need some additional external components in comparison with the special keyboard sensors.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#25

Post by wongarsu »

adrian_b wrote: post #22
ortichic wrote: post #14

Does anyone know why alanlog optical switches never gained traction, but analog magnetic ones did? Sounds like optical ones should be cheaper to manufacture, with all the same benefits?

I believe that keys with optical switches are less reliable, being sensitive to things like sensor misalignment or dust. I have not used any keyboard with optical switches, but several decades ago I have used keyboards with hall sensors, which had a superb quality and reliability, much better than anything that I have used later. Sadly, I had to abandon the first keyboard that I have used with computers owned by me,…

I have a hall-effect keyboard from Wooting, and they are indeed excellent. Very reliable, and setting the trigger point in software/firmware allows a number of interesting features like triggering different key codes depending on how far you've pressed the key down, enabling more rapid keypresses or using keys as analog input.

Their first keyboards actually used optical switches, and from everything I've heard were less reliable, and tracking precision was much worse than with the magnetic switches

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#26

Post by eggoa »

dcminter wrote: post #10

I don't know how their switches worked, but the Wang 2200 terminals¹ that my father worked with had an interesting angle on tactile feedback; on each keypress a single chunky solenoid attached to it physically moved to give a satisfying "chunk" noise and vibration. The idea presumably was to give solid mechanical feedback to professional typists used to the same from electromechanical typewriters throwing the type ar…

This guy sells new beam-spring keyboards with optional solenoids. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com

I have never seen one in person.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#27

Post by SOTGO »

dcminter wrote: post #10

I don't know how their switches worked, but the Wang 2200 terminals¹ that my father worked with had an interesting angle on tactile feedback; on each keypress a single chunky solenoid attached to it physically moved to give a satisfying "chunk" noise and vibration. The idea presumably was to give solid mechanical feedback to professional typists used to the same from electromechanical typewriters throwing the type ar…

I can't say for sure about the Wang terminal keyboards, but what you're describing sounds a lot like a mechanism from some IBM Model B keyboards (usually called Beamsprings). I have an IBM 5251 keyboard that has a solenoid that hammers the side of the metal case whenever you type, and I've heard that it was added as users would have been used to typewriters and wanted to know for sure when they had registered a keypress

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#28

Post by kps »

eggoa wrote: post #26
dcminter wrote: post #10

I don't know how their switches worked, but the Wang 2200 terminals¹ that my father worked with had an interesting angle on tactile feedback; on each keypress a single chunky solenoid attached to it physically moved to give a satisfying "chunk" noise and vibration. The idea presumably was to give solid mechanical feedback to professional typists used to the same from electromechanical typewriters throwing the type ar…

This guy sells new beam-spring keyboards with optional solenoids. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com I have never seen one in person.

Those are buckling spring. Beam springs are older and different.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#29

Post by toyg »

bayindirh wrote: post #3
eknkc wrote: post #2

Is the mechanical keyboard craze still going on? At some point everyone was talking about / showing off their mech keyboard in developer scene. I don’t think I’ve seen much in recent years. I myself went deep into that for a while. Got a couple of keyboards and now I have two Apple Magic Keyboards. Don’t even know where I stashed my mechanicals.

The foam has disappeared, but the enthusiasts are going on. While it's not a craze, I believe mechanical keyboard is still superior for longer writing sessions (Apple's and Logitech's scissor switch keyboards are pretty good, too). Gamers are moving to hall effect switches because of the things they enable, but from what I have seen, some people are still building their keyboards, and people still use mechanical keyb…

> Another chilling effect is caused by the tariffs

Maybe that's why prices in Europe seem to have gone down significantly. It used to be very expensive to get anything over here (UK), but now we're almost spoilt for choice.

Re: Exploring Different Keyboard Sensing Technologies

#30

Post by toyg »

d4rkp4ttern wrote: post #17
eknkc wrote: post #2

Is the mechanical keyboard craze still going on? At some point everyone was talking about / showing off their mech keyboard in developer scene. I don’t think I’ve seen much in recent years. I myself went deep into that for a while. Got a couple of keyboards and now I have two Apple Magic Keyboards. Don’t even know where I stashed my mechanicals.

I absolutely love my UHK [1] split mech keyboard that I ordered from Hungary several years ago. It’s the only one I stuck with after trying some other popular ones. Other than being split, the keyboard layout is standard so it’s easy to adapt to. It probably helps me avoid RSI. I keep an apple trackpad between the two splits, so I never use a mouse. And a microphone in the middle as well, you can guess why. I clamshe…

That's exactly how I used to work about 15 years ago, but I found that the Apple trackpad killed my wrists. These days I just have a regular mouse, and simply try to do as much as I can from the keyboard.
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