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The Value of Things

journal.stuffwithstuff.com

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Re: The Value of Things

#21

Post by arjie »

dzink wrote: post #10

The author attributes meaning for the giver and hopefully receiver to time spent by the giver. They argue less time spent for same utility lowers the meaning. I see something very different: 1. The government post shared as an example of efficiency to utility increase has glaring errors: “journey-level developers”. You will never achieve any improvement on government code bases if the people leading the effort can’t…

Journey-level would just be 'senior', no? I'm not familiar with the terminology but it seems akin to journeyman (i.e. competent executor of a skillset). A junior would be apprentice in that universe, I imagine.

Re: The Value of Things

#22

Post by vsgherzi »

nextos wrote: post #19
vsgherzi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it, I feel like it might improve shops that already care and are already creating with rigor. I don't think it'll raise the bar for the avg shop. However, perhaps that's just be being cynical. By real time embedded is the same do you mean the same in the sense that they are just as poor in quality?

> [...] the same in the sense that they are just as poor in quality? I mean some real-time software for critical embedded systems has an incredible level of rigor, making heavy use of static analysis, model checking, and theorem proving.

Noted, perhaps I'll investigate as a possible next career step. Thanks!

Re: The Value of Things

#23

Post by pwdisswordfishs »

xqb64 wrote: post #2

I'm literally considering a career switch from software engineering to electrical engineering and electronics, and naturally going back to school, because the AI and the way it's used in writing software has sucked out all the meaning in it for me.

Generative AI didn't need to come into existence in order for the proliferation of utterly mind-numbing devops slop that already dominated modern development to suck all the fun out of computers that were originally intended to solve problems for humans.

That's the difference between the original "free software" community and the "open source" one to me, including its modern incarnation on GitHub: the former produces a collaborative effort to develop a UNIX replacement/alternative and a thriving ecosystem around free software desktop environments with apps intended for humans to do their personal computing. The latter gets you Apache Kafka.

Re: The Value of Things

#24

Post by kulahan »

vsgherzi wrote: post #11
xqb64 wrote: post #2

I'm literally considering a career switch from software engineering to electrical engineering and electronics, and naturally going back to school, because the AI and the way it's used in writing software has sucked out all the meaning in it for me.

I'm in the same boat, I'm hoping firmware / embedded might be better in this regard due to the inherit constraints. If not then EE is probably the only other option. Anyone else have thoughts on this? I'm craving a more civil engineering approach to rigor rather than the mess of modern software. Perhaps that means software just isn't for me.

I think the last thing this world needs is programmers bringing their particular style of “””engineering””” to important things like bridges. Can’t wait to hear about the 5-9s of uptime on the Golden Gate.

Re: The Value of Things

#25

Post by Terr_ »

camgunz wrote: post #16

I love Nystrom's writing, and he's so good at it because he's written so much. A huge part of the value of things is how we grow in the making of them, and I worry that in a world where we accept generative slop, we'll never have the opportunity to woodshed enough to become excellent at a craft. I'm a good engineer because I've written tons of code, I've taken no shortcuts, and I've focused on improving over my many…

> And why do we keep building things that enfeeble us?

To offer a view which is, well, a different flavor of pessimism: The good news is that we aren't enfeebling ourselves, the bad news is many humans are being enfeebled by a smaller group of humans as a form of economic predation.

Re: The Value of Things

#26

Post by Klonoar »

kulahan wrote: post #24
vsgherzi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same boat, I'm hoping firmware / embedded might be better in this regard due to the inherit constraints. If not then EE is probably the only other option. Anyone else have thoughts on this? I'm craving a more civil engineering approach to rigor rather than the mess of modern software. Perhaps that means software just isn't for me.

I think the last thing this world needs is programmers bringing their particular style of “””engineering””” to important things like bridges. Can’t wait to hear about the 5-9s of uptime on the Golden Gate.

...why do you think this comment is warranted?

Re: The Value of Things

#27

Post by s5300 »

Klonoar wrote: post #26
kulahan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the last thing this world needs is programmers bringing their particular style of “””engineering””” to important things like bridges. Can’t wait to hear about the 5-9s of uptime on the Golden Gate.

...why do you think this comment is warranted?

[dead]

Re: The Value of Things

#28

Post by mvcalder »

I really enjoyed the article and want to both praise and encourage the author.

You get it. It’s about value. Keep you eye on that north star and you won’t go wrong.

Whose value? How do I value? Can I reconcile disparite value? Yep, those are the right questions.

For me, I read this and want to give a shout out to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, but that’s just me.

I enjoyed the read, thank you.

Re: The Value of Things

#29

Post by pictureofabear »

mvcalder wrote: post #28

I really enjoyed the article and want to both praise and encourage the author. You get it. It’s about value. Keep you eye on that north star and you won’t go wrong. Whose value? How do I value? Can I reconcile disparite value? Yep, those are the right questions. For me, I read this and want to give a shout out to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, but that’s just me. I enjoyed the read, thank you.

Yes! I have struggled with this concern for a while now.

I think that humans are the ultimate arbiters of quality for humans.

Nothing that is non-human can make that determination because anything that is not human (an LLM) is at best just a really good model. Since all models are necessarily wrong by definition, they can never get it right all the time. When determining what’s good for humans, it is only us that can figure that out.

I also came back to ZAMM when wrestling this question. There must be something there if we have all independently coming to similar conclusions.

As an aside, this is a true meme.

Re: The Value of Things

#30

Post by kulahan »

Klonoar wrote: post #26
kulahan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the last thing this world needs is programmers bringing their particular style of “””engineering””” to important things like bridges. Can’t wait to hear about the 5-9s of uptime on the Golden Gate.

...why do you think this comment is warranted?

Because programmers probably think it'll be a similar field, but it's different. It has correct and incorrect ways of doing things, strongly enforced. You're not inventing new shit, you're reapplying old shit constantly. Old shit that works.

Many think writing software is engineering, but it couldn't be further from the truth.

edit: to clarify, trying to get people to realize the grass isn't always greener, and both sides are better off for it.

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