Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

lalitm.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 168 posts

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#21

Post by loudmax »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

It depends on the context. If you're with a small organization and you're interacting with the project early in the development, it could well be your duty to explain your misgivings and why you think they should do things differently. If you're with a large organization and the project is already underway, it's going to take a lot of time and effort to redirect the project. That's time and effort that could probably be spent more productively elsewhere.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#22

Post by dwaltrip »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

How well has that worked? Has it backfired?

I think you both are right in different ways.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#23

Post by dwaltrip »

More succinctly:

* Know your audience. Saying things they are unable to hear is a waste of energy.

* Choose your battles carefully.

The flip side:

* Trust your gut

* Speak authentically and with an aim to help (not convince)

* Don’t be overly invested or dependent on the actions and reactions of others (can be hard to do if someone has power over you)

Balancing these things is something I’m learning about…

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#24

Post by michael_j_x »

ajkjk wrote: post #4

Letting it die is the self-serving, career-optimizing, amoral take. But it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding. Of course, the wisdom of taking the person risk is a continuum. In some cases it is and in some it isn't. But.. To omit the ethical angle entirely seems like a bad take…

You can voice your concerns, but should not go fighting, especially at personal cost. It could be that you may be wrong in your assessment, and the project turns out to be successful, or it could be that you may have been right for the wrong reasons, or it could be that you were right all along. In any case, you are part of a company, and that means recognizing that yours is only one of many opinions driving strategy and allocating resources. If you find your self often needing to stand up against others for your beliefs, then you are probably not in the right company.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#25

Post by JohnFen »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

> If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach.

This is what I do as well, in writing. Then I drop it. Professionalism demands that I say something. That's part of what I'm being paid to do. But experience has taught me that it's almost certainly not going to change anything, so I just do my duty and move on.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#26

Post by dionian »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

I have to question the judgment of the manager talking shit about another team and its leader to a junior engineer. Going and looking at the author's LinkedIn history (it's available via his About page) makes it pretty clear that this was happening within Google. I think it speaks poorly of their manager's professionalism, and what sort of behavior they consider to be acceptable with regard to colleagues.

unfortunately this is the reality of politics esp in big tech companies

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#27

Post by alphazard »

Companies need ways for individuals to bet against projects and people that are likely to fail. So much of the overhead in a large organization is from bad decisions, or people who usually make bad decisions remaining in positions of power.

Imagine if instead of having to speak up, and risk political capital, you could simply place a bet, and carry on with your work. Leadership can see that people are betting against a project, and make updates in real time. Good decision makers could earn significant bonuses, even if they don't have the title/role to make the decisions. If someone makes more by betting than their manager takes home in salary, maybe it's time for an adjustment.

Such a system is clearly aligned with the interests of the shareholders, and the rank-and-file. But the stranglehold that bureaucrats have over most companies would prevent it from being put in place.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#28

Post by acuozzo »

ajkjk wrote: post #4

Letting it die is the self-serving, career-optimizing, amoral take. But it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding. Of course, the wisdom of taking the person risk is a continuum. In some cases it is and in some it isn't. But.. To omit the ethical angle entirely seems like a bad take…

> A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding.

Is it? We live in a world in which social safety nets are eroding; an economically-divided one in which the middle class is rapidly disappearing.

These things (e.g. bullshit projects/jobs) are a form of "white collar welfare", no?

That's not bad. It's not like we're actually going to fix the underlying problem.

Perhaps another bored patent clerk will use his downtime to change the world.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#29

Post by mjlawson »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

I have to question the judgment of the manager talking shit about another team and its leader to a junior engineer. Going and looking at the author's LinkedIn history (it's available via his About page) makes it pretty clear that this was happening within Google. I think it speaks poorly of their manager's professionalism, and what sort of behavior they consider to be acceptable with regard to colleagues.

Not sure if I read this the same way you did. At least, this didn't read at all to me as "talking shit," but rather sharing their professional opinion on the (un)likely success of the project. Keeping thoughts to yourself isn't professional, it's avoidant. Especially when it has the chance to directly affect you.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#30

Post by JohnFen »

bossyTeacher wrote: post #8
ajkjk wrote: post #4

Letting it die is the self-serving, career-optimizing, amoral take. But it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding. Of course, the wisdom of taking the person risk is a continuum. In some cases it is and in some it isn't. But.. To omit the ethical angle entirely seems like a bad take…

> it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. Employment is a business transaction not a transaction based on ethics viewpoints

If you're not being ethical in your business transactions and decisions, you're bad at business. And life.
Post reply on HN