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Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

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Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#21

Post by ben_w »

ls612 wrote: post #9
ben_w wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not possible. To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." Also… I think they probably could solve this. AI image analysis is a thing. AI that estimate age from an image has been a thing for ages. It's not like the idea of throwing the entire internet worth of images at a trainin…

These models generate probably a billion images a day. If getting it wrong for even one of those images is enough to get the entire model banned then it probably isn't possible and this de facto outlaws all image models. That may precisely be the point of this tbh.

> These models generate probably a billion images a day.

Collectively, probably more. Grok? Not unless you count each frame of a video, I think.

> If getting it wrong for even one of those images is enough to get the entire model banned then it probably isn't possible and this de facto outlaws all image models.

If the threshold is one in a billion… well, the risk is for adversarial outcomes, so you can't just toss a billion attempts at it and see what pops out, but a billion images, if it's anything like Stable Diffusion you can stop early, and my experiments with SD suggested the energy cost even for a full generation is only $0.0001/image*, so a billion is merely $100k.

Given the current limits of GenAI tools, simply not including unclothed or scantily clad people in the training set would prevent this. I mean, I guess you could leave topless bodybuilders in there, then all these pics would look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, almost everyone would laugh and not care.

> That may precisely be the point of this tbh.

Perhaps. But I don't think we need that excuse if this was the goal, and I am not convinced this is the goal in the EU for other reasons besides.

* https://benwheatley.github.io/blog/2022/10/09-19.33.04.html

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#22

Post by lokar »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #15
lokar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then your business can fairly be ruled illegal. You don't have the right to act in violation of the law merely because it's the only way to make a buck.

In practice, once a business reaches a size threshold, the law is creatively decided to preserve its existence rather than terminate it. Legality is a function of economics.

Until people have had enough and push back

And if you want to change the law to allow the business, go for it. But until then, we must follow the law.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#23

Post by fragmede »

belter wrote: post #17
chrisjj wrote: post #4

“AI products must be tested rigorously before they go to market to ensure they do not have the capability to generate this material,” Not possible.

Possible or not, what about starting by criminal investigation, to force disclosure, and find out if Musk company had child porn in the training data?

It probably doesn't have pictures of fishes driving cybertrucks, but it's able to generate those, so I doubt there'd need to be CSAM in the database, but maybe I don't know how these things really work.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#24

Post by ben_w »

krapp wrote: post #19
ben_w wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not possible. To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." Also… I think they probably could solve this. AI image analysis is a thing. AI that estimate age from an image has been a thing for ages. It's not like the idea of throwing the entire internet worth of images at a trainin…

>To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." No, they likely won't. AI has become far too big to fail at this point. So much money has been invested in it that speculation on AI alone is holding back a global economic collapse. Governments and companies have invested in AI so deep…

> No, they likely won't. AI has become far too big to fail at this point. So much money has been invested in it that speculation on AI alone is holding back a global economic collapse. Governments and companies have invested in AI so deeply that all failure modes have become existential.

Not in Europe it hasn't, and definitely not for specifically image generation, where it seems to be filling the same role as clipart, stock photos, and style transfer that can be done in other ways.

Image editing is the latest hotness in GenAI image models, but knowledge of this doesn't seem to have percolated very far around the economy, only with weird toys like this one currently causing drama.

> If models can't be contained, controlled or properly regulated then they simply won't be contained, controlled or properly regulated.

I wish I could've shown this kind of message to people 3.5 years ago, or even 2 years ago, saying that AI will never take over because we can always just switch it off.

Mind you, for 2 years ago I did, and they still didn't like it.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#25

Post by GolfPopper »

krapp wrote: post #19
ben_w wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not possible. To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." Also… I think they probably could solve this. AI image analysis is a thing. AI that estimate age from an image has been a thing for ages. It's not like the idea of throwing the entire internet worth of images at a trainin…

>To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." No, they likely won't. AI has become far too big to fail at this point. So much money has been invested in it that speculation on AI alone is holding back a global economic collapse. Governments and companies have invested in AI so deep…

>No, they likely won't. AI has become far too big to fail at this point.

Things that cannot happen will not happen. "AI" (aka LLMs dressed up as AGI by giga-scalr scammers) is never going to work as hyped. What I expect to see in the collision is an attempt to leverage corporate fear and greed into wealth-extractive social control. Hopefully it burns to the ground.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#26

Post by nozzlegear »

krapp wrote: post #19
ben_w wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not possible. To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." Also… I think they probably could solve this. AI image analysis is a thing. AI that estimate age from an image has been a thing for ages. It's not like the idea of throwing the entire internet worth of images at a trainin…

>To which governments, courts, and populations likely respond "We don't care if you can't go to market. We don't want models that do this. Solve it or don't offer your services here." No, they likely won't. AI has become far too big to fail at this point. So much money has been invested in it that speculation on AI alone is holding back a global economic collapse. Governments and companies have invested in AI so deep…

> AI has become far too big to fail at this point.

This might be true for the glorified search engine type of AI that everyone is familiar with, but not for image generation. It's a novelty at best, something people try a couple times and then forget about.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#27

Post by dragonwriter »

chrisjj wrote: post #4

“AI products must be tested rigorously before they go to market to ensure they do not have the capability to generate this material,” Not possible.

> “AI products must be tested rigorously before they go to market to ensure they do not have the capability to generate this material,”

> Not possible.

Note that the description of the accusation earlier in the article is:

> The French government accused Grok on Friday of generating “clearly illegal” sexual content on X without people’s consent, flagging the matter as potentially violating the European Union’s Digital Services Act.

It may be impossible to perfectly regulate what content the model can create, it is quite practical for the Grok product to enforce consent of the user whose content is being operated on before content can be generated based on it and, after the context is generated, before it can be viewed by or distributed to anyone else.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#28

Post by nozzlegear »

zajio1am wrote: post #14
akutlay wrote: post #2

It seems X's Grok became the first large LLM provider to weaken the content moderation rules. If people don't react enough, we will likely lose the first line of defense for keeping AI safe for anyone. Large providers need to act responsibly as the barrier of entry is practically 0.

This is already possible, just download open-weight model and run it locally. It seems absurd to me to enforce content rules on AI services and even more that people on Hacker News advocate for that.

Why does that seem absurd to you?

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#29

Post by ben_w »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #15
lokar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then your business can fairly be ruled illegal. You don't have the right to act in violation of the law merely because it's the only way to make a buck.

In practice, once a business reaches a size threshold, the law is creatively decided to preserve its existence rather than terminate it. Legality is a function of economics.

> Legality is a function of economics.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes "democracy" isn't just a buzzword.

X.com has been blocked by poorer nations than France (specifically, Brazil) for not following local law.

Re: Grok Sexual Images Draw Rebuke, France Flags Content as Illegal

#30

Post by ls612 »

lokar wrote: post #20
ls612 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should photoshop be outlawed? What about MS Paint? Both of them I’m pretty sure are capable of creating this stuff. Also, lets test your commitment to consistency on this matter. In most jurisdictions possession and creation of CSAM is a strict liability crime, so do you support prosecuting whatever journalist demonstrated this capability to the maximum extent of the law? Or are you only in favor of protecting childr…

Photoshop is fine, running a business where you produce CSAM for people with photoshop is not. And this has been very clear for a while now. I did not see the details of what happened, but if someone did in fact take a photo of a real child they had no connection to and caused the images to be created, then yes, they should be investigated, and if the prosecutor thinks they can get a conviction they should be charged…

Somehow I doubt the prosecutor will apply the same standard to the other image generation models, which I bet (obviously without evidence given the nature of this discussion) can be convinced by a motivated adversary to do the same thing at least once. But alas, selective prosecution is the foundation of political power in the west and pointing that out gets you nothing but downvotes. patio11 once put it that pointing out how power is exercised is the first thing that those who wield power prohibit when they gain it.
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