Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The compiler is your best friend

blog.daniel-beskin.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 149 posts

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#21

Post by AnimalMuppet »

skydhash wrote: post #4
LegionMammal978 wrote: post #2

> How many times did you leave a comment on some branch of code stating "this CANNOT happen" and thrown an exception? Did you ever find yourself surprised when eventually it did happen? I know I did, since then I at least add some logs even if I think I'm sure that it really cannot happen. I'm not sure what the author expects the program to do when there's an internal logic error that has no known cause and no defini…

A comment "this CANNOT happen" has no value on itself. Unless you've formally verified the code (including its dependencies) and have the proof linked, such comments may as well be wishes and prayers. Yes, sometimes, the compiler or the hardware have bugs that violate the premises you're operating on, but that's rare. But most non pure algorithms (side effects and external systems) have documented failure cases.

Worse: You may created the proof. You may have linked to the proof. But if anyone has touched any of the code involved since then, it still has no value unless someone has re-done the proof and linked that. (Worse, it has negative value, because it can mislead.)

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#22

Post by skydhash »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #21
skydhash wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A comment "this CANNOT happen" has no value on itself. Unless you've formally verified the code (including its dependencies) and have the proof linked, such comments may as well be wishes and prayers. Yes, sometimes, the compiler or the hardware have bugs that violate the premises you're operating on, but that's rare. But most non pure algorithms (side effects and external systems) have documented failure cases.

Worse: You may created the proof. You may have linked to the proof. But if anyone has touched any of the code involved since then, it still has no value unless someone has re-done the proof and linked that. (Worse, it has negative value, because it can mislead.)

Not really. A quick git blame (or alternative) will give you the required information about the validity of such proof.

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#23

Post by moth-fuzz »

I'm not a fan of the recent trend in software development, started by the OOP craze but in the modern day largely driven by Rust advocates, of noun-based programming, where type hierarchies are the primary interface between the programmer and the code, rather than the data or the instructions. It's just so... dogmatic. Inexpressive. It ultimately feels to me like a barrier between intention and reality, another abstraction. The type system is the program, rather than the program being the program. But speaking of dogma, the author's insistence that not abiding by this noun-based programming model is a form of 'lying' is quite the accusatory stretch of language... but I digress at the notion that I might just be a hit dog hollering.

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#24

Post by smj-edison »

> Rust makes it possible to safely manage memory without using a garbage collector, probably one of the biggest pain points of using low-level languages like C and C++. It boils down to the fact that many of the common memory issues that we can experience, things like dangling pointers, double freeing memory, and data races, all stem from the same thing: uncontrolled sharing of mutable state.

Minor nit: this should be mutable state and lifetimes. I worked with Rust for two years before recently working with Zig, and I have to say opt-in explicit lifetimes without XOR mutability requirements would be a nice combo.

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#25

Post by threethirtytwo »

skydhash wrote: post #4
LegionMammal978 wrote: post #2

> How many times did you leave a comment on some branch of code stating "this CANNOT happen" and thrown an exception? Did you ever find yourself surprised when eventually it did happen? I know I did, since then I at least add some logs even if I think I'm sure that it really cannot happen. I'm not sure what the author expects the program to do when there's an internal logic error that has no known cause and no defini…

A comment "this CANNOT happen" has no value on itself. Unless you've formally verified the code (including its dependencies) and have the proof linked, such comments may as well be wishes and prayers. Yes, sometimes, the compiler or the hardware have bugs that violate the premises you're operating on, but that's rare. But most non pure algorithms (side effects and external systems) have documented failure cases.

False it has value. It’s actually even better to log it or throw an exception. print(“this cannot happen.”)

If you see it you immediately know the class of error is purely a logic error the programmer made a programming mistake. Logging it makes it explicit your program has a logic bug.

What if you didn’t log it? Then at runtime you will have to deduce the error from symptoms. The log tells you explicitly what the error is.

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#26

Post by tosapple »

skydhash wrote: post #18
LegionMammal978 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you not make such a tacit assumption every time you index into an array (which in almost all languages throws an exception on bounds failure)? You always have to make assumptions that things stay consistent from one statement to the next, at least locally. Unless you use formal verification, but hardly anyone has the time and resources for that.

If such an error happens, that would be a compiler bug. Why? Because I usually do checks against the length of the array or have it done as part of the standard functions like `map`. I don't write such assumptions unless I'm really sure about the statements, and even then I don't.

How does one defend against cosmic rays?

Keep two copies or three like RAID?

Edit: ECC ram helps for sure, but what else?

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#27

Post by kccqzy »

GabrielBRAA wrote: post #9
LegionMammal978 wrote: post #2

> How many times did you leave a comment on some branch of code stating "this CANNOT happen" and thrown an exception? Did you ever find yourself surprised when eventually it did happen? I know I did, since then I at least add some logs even if I think I'm sure that it really cannot happen. I'm not sure what the author expects the program to do when there's an internal logic error that has no known cause and no defini…

Heh, recently I had to fix a bug in some code that had one of these comments. Feels like a sign of bad code or laziness. Why make a path that should not happen? I can get it when it's on some while loop that should find something to return, but on a if else sequence it feels really wrong.

Strong disagree about laziness. If the dev is lazy they will not make a path for it. When they are not lazy they actually make a path and write a comment explaining why they think this is unreachable. Taking the time to write a comment is not a sign of laziness. It’s the complete opposite. You can debate whether the comment is detailed enough to convey why the dev thinks it’s unreachable, but it’s infinitely better than no comment and leaving the unreachability in their head.

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#29

Post by doug_durham »

Typing is great, presuming that the developer did a thorough job of defining their type system. If they get the model wrong, or it is incomplete then you aren't really gaining much out of a strictly typed language. Every change is a fight. You are likely to hack the model to make the code compile. There is a reason that Rust is most successful at low level code. This is where the models are concrete and simple to create. As you move up the stack, complexity increases and the ability to create a coherent model goes beyond human abilities. That's why coding isn't math or religion. Different languages and approaches for different domains.

Re: The compiler is your best friend

#30

Post by glenjamin »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #6

I really like modern Swift. It makes a lot of what this author is complaining about, impossible. The worst file I ever inherited to work on was the ObjC class for Instagram’s User Profile page. It looked like it’d been written by a JavaScript fan. There were no types in the whole file, everything was an ‘id’ (aka void*) and there were ‘isKindOfClass’ and null checks all over the place. I wanted to quit when I saw it.…

Any advice on how to learn modern Swift?

When I tried to do learn some to put together a little app, every search result for my questions was for a quick blog seemingly aimed at iOS devs who didn’t want to learn and just wanted to copy-paste the answer - usually in the form of an extension method

Post reply on HN