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My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

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Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#21

Post by bluecalm »

I often read about all those RSI problems and then how pinky fingers have a lot of duties. I find it strange. I type at decent speed and I barely use my pinky fingers at all. I press Caps-Lock, Tab, Shift and Enter with them as well as | and }. Pinkies are small and weak, why use them so much? That's surely neither ergonomic nor the fastest way to type. It also means I don't like the idea of a split keyboard. I reach across quite often. I've never recorded myself to be 100% sure about all the keys but I am regularly reaching for b and y with both hands depending on the word. This way "typo" is just two quick "progressing" taps - "ty" with the left hand and "po" with the right. Of course "po" is way more comfortable with a ring-middle finger instead of a pinky/ring finger.

The whole idea of assigning keys to fingers doesn't sound too smart to me. Why would you type "ce" with the same finger? It's neither fast nor ergonomic. Why do it to yourself?

>Home row mods live in the base layer. In my opinion, home row mods are nearly essential to make a layout this small work well. The idea is simple: your home row keys act as normal keys when tapped, but double as modifiers when held.

I feel this is underexplored idea. After remapping my CapsLock to tap=Esc, hold=ctrl it went from the least used key on my keyboard to the most used one. I really like the idea of also doing it with home row keys, that must be very convenient after getting used to. That also seems completely free as you never (I think) hold those keys during normal computer use.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#22

Post by alphavibe »

darod wrote: post #14

Curious have any of you tried the Charachorder? It's supposed to be the fastest "keyboard" to type on.

I havn't tried it but its way up on my list to try. Another one thats really out there is the svalboard. I really dig that the trackball is just under your hand.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#23

Post by PerryStyle »

Valodim wrote: post #5

For anyone looking into this who doesn't want to design their own layout from scratch, a well maintained layout for small keyboards is Miryoku. Worked very well for me (in qwerty base + vim directional keys mode) on a keyboardio atreus

I’d definitely recommend Miryoku for those starting out. You’re then free to make any modifications to suit your preferences.

I ended up making the layer activations happen on the same hand to allow 1 handed use.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#24

Post by rgoulter »

egypturnash wrote: post #18
rgoulter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this (1) spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and (2) are extremely productive I think (1) is true. Whereas, (2) may be less so. Or at least, "smart but unproductive" is also a class. :) (And I'm sure there are those who have had bad experiences working with such people). I suppose using a keyboard like this is an expensive signal. As in.. it's fai…

> using a keyboard like this is an expensive signal You can get premade keyboards in this layout for about $150. The Kinesis 360 mentioned earlier in the article is $400-500. Decide for yourself how pricey "learning these things exist" and "making a custom DIY one is in terms of both resources and time.

By "expensive signal" I mean more like "hard to fake the enthusiasm" rather than "spent a lot of money".

In terms of monetary cost, the DIY ones can be quite cheap. -- But it's still going to be more expensive & effort intensive compared to just getting a typical mechanical keyboard.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#25

Post by rgoulter »

lawn wrote: post #16
rgoulter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this (1) spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and (2) are extremely productive I think (1) is true. Whereas, (2) may be less so. Or at least, "smart but unproductive" is also a class. :) (And I'm sure there are those who have had bad experiences working with such people). I suppose using a keyboard like this is an expensive signal. As in.. it's fai…

I think 3 thumb keys are too much as the thumb is slow and awkward to move. You can easily get by with 2 and you can get by with just one for normal usage. See my own keyboard layouts for inspiration: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe... https://www.jonashietala.se/series/t-34/

I put emphasis on splitting spacebar into thumb keys just because the large spacebar is so ubiquitous. -- There's practically no downside to splitting the large spacebar into 6x keys.

I think it's good if layout enthusiasts want to use as few as keys as each finds practical. -- I think a good keyboard will support layouts that bring the full functionality of the keyboards to within the hands on home row for two-handed typing (as well as support mouse + keyboard functionality).

But .. I think that the keyboard is physically better off with fewer keys is just fashion amongst enthusiasts.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#26

Post by mandw »

evilduck wrote: post #19
alphavibe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miryoku is a solid layout. Designing your own layout is definitely time consuming, and not something most should try diving into if they are new to small form factor keyboards.

Can't say I agree with the sentiment. Miryoku's layout looks pretty arbitrary, as is any other I would say just find or build a keyboard with support for Via or Vial so that you can change things on the fly when it feels wrong. If you're going down the small form factor keyboard path you're already committed to rewiring muscle memory, you might as well design your layout to meet your specific needs too. It's highly u…

I don't think Miryoku is a good layout for many either, it will depend on your usage.

  A strange thing is that many come in to the small split keyboard world and then don't have the motivation to come up with something that works for them.   You can make anything work, so a lot make Miryoku work but I doubt for many that would be the best layout for them.

   I code a lot and find that its layout would not suit me. I have 99% of what I need on a the base layer and one more layer for doing development work - on a 36 key board.  I could not imagine that I would want to switch layers as much as I would have to  for a continuous stream of alphabet/symbols and numbers.

   I think Miryoku would be fine if you were an average computer user editing documents, emails etc and I do sometimes forget that there are a lot of guys out there using Miryoku doing only that.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#27

Post by mandw »

Analemma_ wrote: post #20
eviks wrote: post #17

the principles aren't sound > To promote balanced usage, ... equal distribution eliminates the strain of overextending the right fingers What overextension? You don't even type them frequently enough for your index/middle finger on the home row to notice anything, and "cognitive overhead" is lower if they're paired together. And neither is this strategy > we reach up for numbers,..This strategic approach ensures that…

I love almost everything about the current revolution in keyboards (the mech switches, ergonomic layouts, and open-source designs), but I do think this arms race towards fewer and fewer keys is just getting ridiculous. Yes, you can use chords and layers, but at some point I think the cognitive overhead is outpacing whatever size and ergonomic advantages there could be, especially if you're a programmer and frequently…

I think the same thing, and then I went a little smaller! I went to a large split then to a 58 key split, then to a 42 key split. At 42 I saw no advantage in going smaller other than it being smaller if you liked the look of it. Then I wanted to try a small dactyl and that lead me to an already designed 36 key split and I love it. I lost some more keys and found that I can easily handle that. I would not say that the move from 42 to 36 made it more ergonomic but not worse. While I went from 42 to 36 without thinking there were downsides, I think going any smaller does start to compromise functionality for the sake of form. At 36, I think that even on a bigger keyboard I would emulate the layout I have now as it is so easy.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#28

Post by exq »

Valodim wrote: post #5

For anyone looking into this who doesn't want to design their own layout from scratch, a well maintained layout for small keyboards is Miryoku. Worked very well for me (in qwerty base + vim directional keys mode) on a keyboardio atreus

I use this on my 42-key Corne: https://mark.stosberg.com/markstos-corne-3x5-1-keyboard-layo... It's a sensible starting layout that I've made very few changes to. I added a mousekeys/macro layer, moved single quote to put semicolon on pinky, added print screen bind, and added a homerow combo J+K for esc.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#29

Post by mndgs »

rjh29 wrote: post #12
MorehouseJ09 wrote: post #7

disclaimer: I'm the ceo of this company. What started as a joke a few years ago has actually turned into really good signal. I've found that the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and are extremely productive. Causation or correlation?

Some people like to over-optimise everything. Window manager, vim config, unix tool choice, split keyboard, DVORAK layout, mechanical keyboards, coffee brewing, Obsidian note-taking/Zettelkasten, mice (the rabbit hole for mice goes as deep as keyboards) This is often more about enjoying the process of optimising than wanting to be productive overall. Some may spend a lot of time reading Hacker News to "keep up with n…

Spot on! If you add car tuning or PC overclocking, you might as well call it a hobby.

Re: My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

#30

Post by hackerdood »

bluecalm wrote: post #21

I often read about all those RSI problems and then how pinky fingers have a lot of duties. I find it strange. I type at decent speed and I barely use my pinky fingers at all. I press Caps-Lock, Tab, Shift and Enter with them as well as | and }. Pinkies are small and weak, why use them so much? That's surely neither ergonomic nor the fastest way to type. It also means I don't like the idea of a split keyboard. I reach…

Only issue with home row key combos is the letter comes out delayed since it’s now waiting for keyup event to register single press vs keydown for a combo. You don’t notice that with caps lock remapping because caps lock doesn’t output anything.

Ask me how I know :)

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