Ha ha, well that's a relief. I thought the article was going to say that enabling TCP_NODELAY is causing problems in distributed systems. I am one of those people who just turn on TCP_NODELAY and never look back because it solves problems instantly and the downsides seem minimal. Fortunately, the article is on my side. Just enable TCP_NODELAY if you think it's a good idea. It apparently doesn't break anything in general.
It's Always TCP_NODELAY
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Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#22Why doesn’t linux just add a kconfig that enables TCP_NODELAY system wide? It could be enabled by default on modern distros.
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#23The Nagle algorithm was created back in the day of multi-point networking. Multiple hosts were all tied to the same communications (Ethernet) channel, so they would use CSMA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-sense_multiple_access_... ) to avoid collisions. CSMA is no longer necessary on Ethernet today because all modern connections are point-to-point with only two "hosts" per channel. (Each host can have any nu…
Just to add, ethernet uses csma/cd, WiFi uses csma/ca.
Upgraded our DC switches to new ones around 2014 and needed to keep a few old ones because the new ones didn't support 10Mbit half duplex.
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#24The Nagle algorithm was created back in the day of multi-point networking. Multiple hosts were all tied to the same communications (Ethernet) channel, so they would use CSMA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-sense_multiple_access_... ) to avoid collisions. CSMA is no longer necessary on Ethernet today because all modern connections are point-to-point with only two "hosts" per channel. (Each host can have any nu…
Nagle is quite sensible when your application isn't taking any care to create sensibly-sized packets, and isn't so sensitive to latency. It avoids creating stupidly small packets unless your network is fast enough to handle them.
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#25Wildly, the Polish word "nagle" (pronounced differently) means "suddenly" or "all at once", which is just astonishingly apropos for what I'm almost certain is pure coincidence.
Yeah, it's named after the person who wrote the RFC - John Nagle. Wild coincidence! https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc896
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#26Wouldn't distributed systems benefit from using UDP instead of TCP?
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#27Wouldn't distributed systems benefit from using UDP instead of TCP?
Only if you're sending data you don't mind losing and getting out of order
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#28I found this article while debugging some networking delays for a game that I'm working on. It turns out that in my case it wasn't TCP_NODELAY - my backend is written in go, and go sets TCP_NODELAY by default! But I still found the article - and in particular Nagle's acknowledgement of the issues! - to be interesting. There's a discussion from two years ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40310896 - but I…
There is also a good write-up [0] by Julia Evans. We ran into this with DICOM storescp, which is a chatty protocol and TCP_NODELAY=1 makes the throughput significantly better. Since DICOM is often used in a LAN, that default just makes it unnecessarily worse. [0]: https://jvns.ca/blog/2015/11/21/why-you-should-understand-a-... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10607422
Oh! Thank you for this! I love Julia’s writing but haven’t read this post.
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
#29The Nagle algorithm was created back in the day of multi-point networking. Multiple hosts were all tied to the same communications (Ethernet) channel, so they would use CSMA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-sense_multiple_access_... ) to avoid collisions. CSMA is no longer necessary on Ethernet today because all modern connections are point-to-point with only two "hosts" per channel. (Each host can have any nu…
Just to add, ethernet uses csma/cd, WiFi uses csma/ca. Upgraded our DC switches to new ones around 2014 and needed to keep a few old ones because the new ones didn't support 10Mbit half duplex.
Thanks for the clarification. They're so close to being the same thing that I always call it CSMA/CD. Avoiding a collision is far more preferable than just detecting one.
Yeah, many enterprise switches don't even support 100Base-T or 10Base-T anymore. I've had to daisy chain an old switch that supports 100Base-T onto a modern one a few times myself. If you drop 10/100 support, you can also drop HD (simplex) support. In my junk drawer, I still have a few old 10/100 hubs (not switches), which are by definition always HD.
Re: It's Always TCP_NODELAY
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