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How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

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Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#21

You might also like this Less Wrong essay: "Defecting by accident is lacking the awareness, tact, and skill to realize what the secondary effects of your actions are and act accordingly to win." http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...

The interesting thing for me reading this article was, when I got to the section where he discusses comments on his post, I couldn't help but think, "Damn, the internet would be so BORING if everyone was that nice all the time." What would be the fun of an internet where everyone is so positive and generous all the time? Maybe I'm just addicted to intellectual sparring. Who knows.

I felt the same way.

I think I'd rather try to develop an intuitive feel for when to defect and when not to defect, so you can make these snap judgments on the fly and have them not work out too badly for you.

I also found his example pretty interesting. There have definitely been times that I have called out my boss, or my PM, or an executive in a meeting or e-mail thread. And in most places, that would be career suicide. But the thing is - the alternative, in most cases, is to let a wrong decision go through. Usually the meeting is where the decision gets made; if you wait until afterwards to bring up your concerns, then time has to be spent getting everyone back on the same page, which is more embarrassing and costs a lot more for the company. When your code affects a billion people and makes billions of dollars in revenue, every single person needs to be able to blow the whistle, regardless of hurt feelings, and say "This is dumb; let's not do it." I tell Nooglers I mentor that the most valuable thing they can do for the company is to challenge obviously-wrong product decisions and not let them go through.

I try to make it up by praising things I actually do like, honestly. But I've found it's a much better strategy to be prickly on some things and effusively praising on others than to be uniformly inoffensive.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#22

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children.

I think that's a hasty generalization.

Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. You can discern the signal from time to time if you concentrate hard enough, and you can put an abstraction layer on top of all the analytic processing so that the result looks somewhat like "social intelligence". But at bottom, it's always like trying to do floating-point calculations on a processor that was only designed for integer calculations. It's inefficient by many orders of magnitude, because you have to fake every step.

Of course, there isn't a clear line between an introverted neurotypical and an Aspie. But just because the transition is gradual doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist.

It makes me sad whenever an article like this uses the word "Asperger's" to describe typical introverted programmers. (This is a complaint about the article, not the parent comment.) It also makes me sad to read comments that make excessively broad generalizations about how people (should) acquire social intelligence. (This is a complaint about the parent comment.) Overgeneral advice, even if well-intentioned, could give neurotypicals the misleading idea that Aspies behave like they do because of their own fault (lack of effort).

Nowadays, we often throw around psychiatric terms to describe behavior that falls within the normal range. "I'm feeling ADHD today." "He's a bit of an Aspie." "She acts as if she has bipolar disorder when she's drunk." etc. Although some of these are meant to be comical and we all have some use for metaphors and exaggerations, we should be careful not to make serious generalizations based on such informal usage of terms.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual sparring doesn't necessitate being not nice.

True, but a sharp debate can be quite delicious.

This isn't a "but". A good debate is characterized by mutual respect. Otherwise, points go unadvanced beyond their initial assertion, because they aren't properly challenged. There is an important reason that the most commonly called-out fallacy is the argumentum ad hominem; its usage undermines the debate itself. It also happens to be the internet's favorite tactic, and it's a huge part of why the internet is not good at getting things done.

Honestly, the Internet and the world at large is missing out on many, many possibilities for "intellectual sparring" because they've made it extremely debate-hostile in the name of having fun and "can't you take a joke". People would rather cram things down by force or not at all, because if they open the floor to conversation, their ideas will be lost in the haze of personal accusation. I wasn't able to find a list, but there are a lot of women bloggers who have signed off for good because harassment created a cost in time and energy that outweighed the benefit of contributing to the public debate.

Be honest with yourself. Recognize that what you really enjoy is the gamesmanship of one-line zingers. Don't call it a debate until you can tell me what the Ps and Qs are.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#24
post #22

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intellig…

I do find it interesting that we ask Aspies to become more empathetic, but we don't ask neurotipicals to become a little less hung up on social niceties.

Obviously, neurotypicals get the benefit of the doubt for "how people should be", since there are so many more of them. But we don't ask gays to be straight, despite not being "normal", numerically, so why should we ask Aspies to be more empathetic? Why assume an Aspie is broken, by default? Where's the proof that lack of empathy is a problem for anything other than working with neurotypicals?

I can't help but wonder that the future might not actually belong to neurotypicals. That, perhaps, the Aspie mutation might be better adapted to a world that is becoming more and more computerized and less and less hospitable to neurotypicals.

For example, consider Zynga. How many normals are completely wasting their lives and earnings on an objectively stupid social game because their normal, empathetic minds have been hacked to "like" and see value in it? We all can see that it's sad, and yet we know there's virtually nothing that can be done for them, short of banning those games. They simply cannot adapt, where Aspies can (and have).

Neurotypicals seem to think Aspies have "anti-social" lives, but those I've met seem pretty happy. And at least from my perspective, are really straightforward to get along with, if you can understand their behavior and not take offense and what would normally be a slight in neurotypical-land.

Perhaps trying to turn Aspies into neurotypicals is really only beneficial today because most of the world is normal, so Aspies, to some degree, need to work with neurotypicals if they are to achieve anything.

But how long will that be true? When will a critical mass of Aspies exist, or the world become hospitable to them despite not having to pretend to be neurotypicals?

And what then? Do we continue to try and "make the gays straight", so to speak? Or do we realize that an Aspie is just as valid a way to live as anything else, and not a disability to be overcome?

It's strange to see evolution happen right in front of us. I don't have any answers, but these are the thoughts that have occurred to me for some time now, and I thought I'd share.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#25
I've tried stuff like this. The problem is that my brain gives me wrong/negative interpretations of the other person's emotions most of the time, and I leave almost every social interaction feeling like a failure. This naturally feeds back on itself. Anyone else dealt with something similar?

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#26
At least for myself, I think there's a gray area between being socially awkward and being selfish. And if the selfishness is not intentional then I might even call it self-ignorance.

I had the good fortune in my 20's of hanging around an uncle who was amazingly charismatic - the type that lights up the room, as they say. I tried to emulate him for a while and of course it never really worked all that well for me. But I did become more aware of my own habits. Before that I had always thought I was a pretty considerate person. It took some self analysis to realize that I was pretty stingy with compliments and I didn't really take much interest in what other people were doing. I didn't do thoughtful things for people very often. A lot of times I think I still don't do enough but I'm a lot more aware of it now. The sad thing is that it really doesn't take that much. Some people seem to get it earlier than others but it took me into my 20's before I really became aware of how I treated other people.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#27
post #22

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intellig…

> At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio.

Yep, that's exactly what it feels like to me. I recently got diagnosed with Asperger's. I find it impossible to do "social intelligence" in real time during a conversation.

The frustrating part is that the signal is obviously there, since other people pick up on it just fine.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After a couple of seconds the girl says "Maybe if you try swiping it in the middle it will help." Personally, I'd find that way of expressing it slightly annoying, though I'm not sure why. Perhaps because it's worded as a suggestion without saying why this suggestion is worth considering. Maybe if I tried swiping it while singing Yankee Doodle Dandy, it would also help? The way that I would word this sort of sugges…

My gut reaction to her way of expressing it was also negative, although I'd give her the benefit of the doubt in person because she's just trying to help. I think it's because it's condescending. In two ways - on one hand, it's pointing out something that's obvious in hindsight. On the other, it's blatantly trying to sugarcoat that it's obvious, as if you can't handle the fact that you don't know everything. I would'…

(replying since it's too late to edit into my comment...)

Also, this is one of those cases where body language says a lot. "Try the middle", said cheerfully and with a smile, comes across a whole lot differently than when said slowly & gruffly, in a low tone of voice, with your arms crossed across your chest.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#30
No question about the practical value of any of this, as the power of these abilities has been discussed and dissected many times, but I'd like to make a brief case as to _why_ some find this distasteful, after many years of reading forums like this and talking to people who openly expressed hatred of it (it being non-verbal signals, subtext, etc.)

First, there is the issue of merit. It seems like this grants those with good social intelligence an "unfair" advantage, since the skills involved aren't involved in actually creating/fixing/understanding anything concrete; its power comes from its ability to persaude, detect, and signal. Some perceive this sort of skill as seeming fake and superficial.

Second, it flies in the face of the idea of radical honesty and transparency, as it deals with situations and ideas having to do with saying one thing (or nothing at all) but meaning another. This feels very dishonest, and ugly. Some would like to live in a world where absolutely everything is completely explicitly stated, and no one gets offended, but uses everything said as a learning experience. This may seem naive (because the ability to think and say things others may find subjectively offensive is great), but the desire persists nonetheless.

I'm personally torn on the subject, as both ways have their serious negatives, but it's worth stating here anyway.

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