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'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

irishtimes.com

21–30 of 59 posts

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subject of the article, Kimberly Prost, is one of the specific decisionmakers at the ICC who ruled that the Afghanistan investigation could proceed over American objections. I agree with what I think is your implication, that it wouldn't make much sense to sanction random ICC employees. What I'd want in some hypothetical situation, though, doesn't have much to do with it. If it were up to me, I'd rather the US ra…

Luz Ibanez: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/life-icc-judge-sanctioned... I have few words to argue against what I consider to be 'midieval practices' that should not even exist as a thought in 'modern' Western 'democracies' on how to deal with international relations and law. Can you point me at the legal basis for this decision apart from "because we say so"? What crime did they commit? What they did as part of t…

Luz Ibanez was another of the judges who made that same ruling.

> I have no words to even argue against what I consider to be 'midieval practices' that should not even exist as a thought in 'modern' Western 'democracies' on how to deal with international relations and law. Can you point me at the legal basis for this decision apart from "because we say so"? What they did as part of their job is not illegal anywhere. The US is not required to join and help actively enforce the court's decisions.

What they did as part of their job is illegal in the US. US law specifies (22 USC 7421, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/7421) that the ICC may not prosecute Americans and the US government should do whatever it can to ensure that doesn't happen. A US court, of course, would not have jurisdiction over the actions of foreign nationals in foreign countries. But the executive, as in most if not all countries, has broad authority to impose sanctions on foreign individuals and organizations who are threatening to unlawfully injure US citizens.

Imagine that Putin set up a Transnational Criminal Court in Moscow, and judges in that court issued an arrest warrant, instructing anyone who can get their hands on Emmanuel Macron to kidnap him and bring him to Moscow to face trial for his government's actions in Mali. That would be a big problem, right? Of course the French government would try to punish the judges for doing that, and it would be more than a little silly to say they shouldn't face any consequences because Russian law authorized the warrant. This is what the US argues the ICC is doing here.

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US wielding the sanctions banhammer the way they have been recently will only weaken its power over time and create opportunity for economic rivals like China. China is not party to the Rome Statute, just like the US and Israel, I would expect they would retaliate against the ICC if the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Xi Jinping. > Every time they (mis)use it they create incentive for people to create alternat…

> I think the ICC has much bigger credibility issues trying to impose jurisdiction over conflicts involving countries that are not parties to the Rome Statute. such as…?

> such as…?

Israel and the US for example.

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#23
That's absolutely wonderful. Great illustration why Europe needs to oust any American based service from the market. If Americans want to have access to EU customers they should be doing it only through local company (they are allowed to own) that doesn't obey US law, but only European law instead.

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#24

Has the US imposed these kinds of sanctions on the ICC before Trump?

No, but do keep in mind that the ICC isn't very old. I think it's clear that the Bush administration at least would have imposed sanctions if the occasion arose; he signed the famous "Hague Invasion Act", authorizing military force to free any Americans who do end up in ICC custody.

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sending a warning to other ICC judges/employees.

A warning about what ? That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer? That other parts of the world are not allowed to have their own sense and modalities of justice?

> A warning about what?

It's basically a warning against attempting to apply jurisdiction to countries that are not parties to the Rome Statute.

> That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer?

The sanctions are due to specific actions(i.e. rulings) taken by the individuals against US and their allies.[0]

> That other parts of the world are not allowed to have their own sense and modalities of justice?

The issue is mostly one of jurisdiction, the ICC is attempting to unilaterally impose jurisdiction on to states that never agreed to delegate authority whatsoever to the ICC.

[0] https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A warning about what ? That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer? That other parts of the world are not allowed to have their own sense and modalities of justice?

> A warning about what? It's basically a warning against attempting to apply jurisdiction to countries that are not parties to the Rome Statute. > That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer? The sanctions are due to specific actions(i.e. rulings) taken by the individuals against US and their allies.[0] > That other parts of the…

ICC claims jurisdiction in Palestine. Whether Israel or the US accept that is their business. Nobody is interfering with their national autonomy. I see no "imposition" of jurisdiction here by the ICC. The only country that is imposing their jurisdiction here, and enforcing it outside of their own jurisdiction, are the US. The ICC merely issues documents; everybody is free to agree or disagree with their documents. They have no power of enforcement. The ICC is only doing what they received as a task by the signatory countries of the Rome statute, which ultimately decide what actions to take or not. As such, you could say the ICC merely writes "policy recommendations". The US is the one taking action.

Can you point me at any action that the ICC has taken in the United States or Israel? No, because it is a court. It publishes documents. Legal opinions. You're totally free to decide whether you accept it as a "court" or not.

Can't you see that it is exactly this kind of US exceptionalism and international interfering that stirs hatred, and does not bring peace but breeds terrorism and war?

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A warning about what ? That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer? That other parts of the world are not allowed to have their own sense and modalities of justice?

> A warning about what? It's basically a warning against attempting to apply jurisdiction to countries that are not parties to the Rome Statute. > That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer? The sanctions are due to specific actions(i.e. rulings) taken by the individuals against US and their allies.[0] > That other parts of the…

> It's basically a warning against attempting to apply jurisdiction to countries that are not parties to the Rome Statute.

The crimes prosecuted by the ICC are accepted by the US as matters of universal jurisdiction under international law, so the US can have no legitimate objection to (1) any country exercising jurisdiction over them wherever they are alleged to occur, or (2) any country exercising its sovereign power to delegate its exercise of jurisdiction over them anywhere to an international tribunal, like the ICC, either generally, under specified terms (such as those in the Rome Statute), or ad hoc.

And they certainly have the least basis for doing so when the country on whose territory they are alleged to have occurred, and who would thus have jurisdiction whether or not they were matters of universal jurisdiction under international law, does so. (Which is, other than a UNSC resolution, the only way the ICC, under the Rome Statute, gets jurisdiction when the accused are not nationals of a State Party to the Statute.)

The actual objection is not the broad principle you are trying to articulate, but it is to the idea of Israel being accountable under international law for crimes for which it has the full support of the US government, irrespective of any theory of law. Trying to frame it as having a good-faith legalistic rationale is either being woefully ignorant or being as flagrantly dishonest as the US government itself is being.

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luz Ibanez: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/life-icc-judge-sanctioned... I have few words to argue against what I consider to be 'midieval practices' that should not even exist as a thought in 'modern' Western 'democracies' on how to deal with international relations and law. Can you point me at the legal basis for this decision apart from "because we say so"? What crime did they commit? What they did as part of t…

Luz Ibanez was another of the judges who made that same ruling. > I have no words to even argue against what I consider to be 'midieval practices' that should not even exist as a thought in 'modern' Western 'democracies' on how to deal with international relations and law. Can you point me at the legal basis for this decision apart from "because we say so"? What they did as part of their job is not illegal anywhere.…

That's a very good US-side steelman!

The counter-argument, of course, is that a country is allowed to adjudicate crimes that happen inside their own borders, else what's even the point of being a country.

The ICC has been granted jurisdiction by it's 124 signatories, so if crimes against humanity occur within their borders, then -for those countries- the ICC acts as part of their court system. Uncomfortably, this includes Afghanistan and the Palestinian state, so you can see why respectively the USA and Israel might have some issues.

Of course it kind of helps if people are arrested on the ground in the country where they committed the crimes they are accused of. The ICC does not necessarily have the ability to reach into non-member states to arrest people who have left the scene of the crime. They can only issue a warrant on the off chance that one day those people step back into their jurisdiction.

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A warning about what? It's basically a warning against attempting to apply jurisdiction to countries that are not parties to the Rome Statute. > That the US thinks it rules the world and is terrified enough to go after individuals who just happen to work for the wrong employer? The sanctions are due to specific actions(i.e. rulings) taken by the individuals against US and their allies.[0] > That other parts of the…

ICC claims jurisdiction in Palestine. Whether Israel or the US accept that is their business. Nobody is interfering with their national autonomy. I see no "imposition" of jurisdiction here by the ICC. The only country that is imposing their jurisdiction here, and enforcing it outside of their own jurisdiction, are the US. The ICC merely issues documents; everybody is free to agree or disagree with their documents. Th…

> ICC claims jurisdiction in Palestine. Whether Israel or the US accepts that is their business. But that still doesn't explain the legal basis of going against individual employees of the ICC. I see no "imposition" of jurisdiction here by the ICC or any of the countries that signed the Rome statute.

The ICC is attempting to have arrest warrants enforced through cooperation with states that are parties to the Rome Statutes for claimed offenses by citizens of countries that are not party to the Rome statute. The US views this as an attack on sovereignty essentially and essentially has decided to retaliate by imposing sanctions.

> The ICC merely issues documents; everybody is free to agree or disagree with their documents. They have no power of enforcement whatsoever. The US here is taking action.

The ICC issues documents that Rome Statute signatories have agreed to enforce(whether they actually enforce in practice is another matter. Regardless it seems pretty clear that the US considers any threat of enforcement to be sufficient grounds to impose sanctions against the organization they view as attacking it.

> Can you point me at any action that the ICC has taken in the United States?

The ICC has made it difficult for the head of government of a strategic ally of the US to travel to many countries at a time when that ally is under attack by many other countries. The ICC has in effect threatened to do the same to US citizens as well. There's a bit more nuance than this but it's not hard to see why the US views the ICC as a real threat worthy of sanctions. This is not really a new thing either, the US has even strong-armed many countries into signing "Article 98 agreements" in order to ensure ICC doesn't have jurisdiction over US citizens.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat...

Re: 'It's surreal': How US sanctions lock ICC judges out of daily life

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luz Ibanez was another of the judges who made that same ruling. > I have no words to even argue against what I consider to be 'midieval practices' that should not even exist as a thought in 'modern' Western 'democracies' on how to deal with international relations and law. Can you point me at the legal basis for this decision apart from "because we say so"? What they did as part of their job is not illegal anywhere.…

That's a very good US-side steelman! The counter-argument, of course, is that a country is allowed to adjudicate crimes that happen inside their own borders, else what's even the point of being a country. The ICC has been granted jurisdiction by it's 124 signatories, so if crimes against humanity occur within their borders, then -for those countries- the ICC acts as part of their court system. Uncomfortably, this inc…

> Afghanistan

Funny enough the current government of Afghanistan also rejects ICC jurisdiction and is not a full UN or US recognized state.[0]

> Palestinian

Which is not a full UN or US/Israel recognized state either.

> you can see why respectively the USA and Israel might have some issues

Yeah, from the US/Israel point of view trying to enforce jurisdiction of unrecognized enemy states is certainly problematic. Especially when in the US/Afghanistan case neither government seems to be granting the court any jurisdiction at all.

[0] https://www.ejiltalk.org/unrecognized-governments-and-the-ic...

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