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A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

arxiv.org

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Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#21

Post by netsharc »

SimianSci wrote: post #14
slwvx wrote: post #7

A more positive-sum view is that the US is bringing the rest of the world up in science every time it exports a PhD.

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then…

> they dont seem to be reaping the benefits

"they" as in the USA or its people?

Germany has taxpayer-subsidized education even for foreign students. They may stay, the may leave. One of its views is that the time the student spent in the country helps foster cultural ties and understanding, and generates goodwill towards the country...

I suppose "goodwill" is hard to translate to cold hard cash, so America doesn't really like it ;-)

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#22

Post by ribosometronome »

integralid wrote: post #18
SimianSci wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then…

The US is not "exporting" anything. PhDs are people, they pay for their education and they leave. Nevertheless responding to your question: >Contrary to common perceptions, US technology benefits from these graduates' work even if they leave: though the US share of global patent citations to graduates' science drops from 70% to 50% after migrating, it remains five times larger than the destination country share

Isn't that how exporting works? People buy something in one place and take it another?

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#23

Post by integralid »

SimianSci wrote: post #16
bikenaga wrote: post #2

Abstract: "Using newly-assembled data from 1980 through 2024, we show that 25% of scientifically-active, US-trained STEM PhD graduates leave the US within 15 years of graduating. Leave rates are lower in the life sciences and higher in AI and quantum science but overall have been stable for decades. Contrary to common perceptions, US technology benefits from these graduates' work even if they leave: though the US sha…

> "US Technology benfits from these graduates' work even if they leave." Can someone please substatiate this claim? Many people I know are begining to question this and Id like to know more.

You are quoting abstract of a scientific paper dedicated to this issue. The one linked by the OP.

(arguably is not an easy read, but if you're looking for hard data is probably worth giving a shot)

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#24

Post by doctorwho42 »

cyberax wrote: post #13

Well. Duh. The US PERM process is a nightmare. And it's not just the requirements and regional quotas. It's also the complete opacity of the process, with the USCIS taking _years_ to process straightforward applications in some cases. No wonder people just give up and leave.

Dude, seriously. I'm a citizen and work in a lab, and I have a world expert in my lab... One of maybe 5 in the world, Canadian... And the difficulty for him to stay is insane.

If you asked any American how hard he should have it, they'd probably expect he just needed to fill out a form, pay $150, and wait 1-2 years.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#25

Post by sailfast »

mattnewton wrote: post #15
M3L0NM4N wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends pretty heavily on the destination of the export, i.e. not China.

not sure I understand, I read a lot of research papers from China.

My read: China is seen as a serious geopolitical rival that the United States must beat in a shooting or Cold or AI or war. As a result PHDs to China as an export would be a negative impact, not a positive one potentially.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#26

Post by [deleted] »

SimianSci wrote: post #14
slwvx wrote: post #7

A more positive-sum view is that the US is bringing the rest of the world up in science every time it exports a PhD.

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then…

[deleted]

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#27

Post by ribosometronome »

programmarchy wrote: post #19
delaminator wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

foreigner comes to US to buy STEM education completes it, leaves

Academia is more than a transaction. It's a social good. One that's also subsidized by the US taxpayer.

If we were to compare it to a transaction, I think something like California exporting alfalfa to Saudi Arabia might make more sense. We've only but so much water to use and it's far from absurd to question if it makes sense to let our limited resources get drained for exporting things elsewhere.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#29

Post by msteffen »

My understanding is that scientific research has a dual problem, where the number of students needed to carry out existing professors' research is much larger than the number of junior faculty positions generally available. The result being that most trained PhDs must leave (US) academia because there are no jobs for them. In fact, I've heard scientists complain that universities owe it to students to provide more help finding a job in industry after they graduate.

Given all that, where are professors supposed to find and hire students who don't want to stay in academia themselves? I think a lot of these students wind up being aspiring immigrants, and I'm not surprised that a lot of them would also have a hard time finding a place for themselves after graduating and that many of them would leave. Also, the abstract seems to argue that that US still benefits greatly from this arrangement: "though the US share of global patent citations to graduates' science drops from 70% to 50% after migrating, it remains five times larger than the destination country share."

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#30

Post by light_hue_1 »

The conversation has radically changed.

10-15 years ago my foreign grad students all wanted to stay. Only question was how.

There was always a big crowd who found the process of staying in the US painful, random, humiliating, and sometimes even downright abusive, so they went home.

What has really changed is China. That's what this paper shows too. Many of the Chinese students want go back home.

10-15 years ago when I would talk to grad students from China most wanted freedom and democracy. Now most tell me about how the Western system has failed and how a centralized government is more efficient.

Between making it harder to stay, China changing the narrative on dictatorships, and the West doing a horrific job in the last decade on pretty much every front, yeah, we're going to see a lot of folks move back.

Note: This is at a top-tier US university.

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