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Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

torrentfreak.com

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Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't mistake the fact that I didn't bother debunking each individual point from the article here on Hacker News for either ignorance or apathy with regard to IP laws. I'm well aware of the opposing point of view and the common arguments made in its favour. I just haven't yet seen any real evidence that supports the kind of absurdly generic claim made by Falkvinge in this article. And to be frank, I'm unlikely…

I'd make a blanket response to your "Shame if you..." points as follows: Maybe those ships have sailed and society has no need of those things anymore. If society needs those things it will find a way to pay for them. If it can't, it doesn't need them. An industry's failure to create a sustainable business model in the face of the reality that technology has created isn't a failing of the technology. It would be nice…

If society needs those things it will find a way to pay for them. If it can't, it doesn't need them.

I don't accept your premise. The situation is too similar to a tragedy of the commons, with a large dose of ignorance mixed in: most people outside the creative industries have no idea how much hard work by how many different kinds of people ultimately contributes to that smash hit music recording or novel or computer game. They just think of it as the latest track from $singer or the latest book from $author/$publisher or the latest game from $studio.

Take a look at how long the credits are the next time you watch a blockbuster movie that you enjoy, and see how many of the job titles you even understand. Unless you work in the movies, it will probably be a small minority, yet without all the others you probably wouldn't have enjoyed the movie nearly so much, assuming it even existed.

The trouble is, a lot of people have got used to two conflicting views in recent years: we expect ever higher creative values in works (which come with a higher sunk cost to produce the work initially) and yet we see that we can redistribute them cheaply and quickly (which implies a marginal cost near zero). If you don't have copyright, or some other economic tool, to amortise the huge sunk cost over a similarly huge audience, then you can't afford to make the work in the first place and the fact that the marginal cost of physical reproduction/redistribution is now near zero doesn't help you.

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#22
post #9

Imagine if, before intellectual property, you put 20 smart people in a room, and tell them to come up with solutions to add incentives for creative works. None of them would have come up with "Hey! Why don't we grant inventors monopolies over inventions! We could increase the ammount and quality of inventions by limiting what others can invent!". No one would ever think that's a good idea. It's completely backwards a…

Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. It's about preventing free-riding. You think any sensible VC would have invested in Microsoft if there was nothing preventing Tandy, etc, from buying a single IBM machine, copying the OS off the disks, and selling as many machines with Windows loaded as they wanted without paying any licensing fees to Microsoft? As for YC, etc... What a ridiculous bit of self-important…

Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation.

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

-- United States Constitution

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. It's about preventing free-riding. You think any sensible VC would have invested in Microsoft if there was nothing preventing Tandy, etc, from buying a single IBM machine, copying the OS off the disks, and selling as many machines with Windows loaded as they wanted without paying any licensing fees to Microsoft? As for YC, etc... What a ridiculous bit of self-important…

>Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. It's about preventing free-riding. Why is free-riding bad unless it reduces the incentive for innovation? If half the world can free-ride on something with no marginal cost that will be produced regardless of the free-riding, the result is greater economic efficiency. >You think any sensible VC would have invested in Microsoft if there was nothing preventing Tandy, etc…

> Why is free-riding bad unless it reduces the incentive for innovation?

Free-riding is a narrower concept than simply reduced incentives. There are lots of different incentives and lots of different ways to increase or reduce incentives, but free-riding addresses the specific case of where the ability to copy a design cheaply and easily and thus undercut the inventor reduces or eliminates the incentive to invest in new designs.

> I don't think anyone is suggesting that Microsoft would be able to survive with the same business model in the absence of copyright. But the real question is, would there still be operating systems? And obviously there would be -- at the very least BSD and GNU/Linux and the like.

That's not really the full extent of the question. It's not just whether there would be operating systems, but would the market be served as well by those operating systems?

BSD was a university research project that arose in the context of a major DARPA project. That's a viable and popular model, but do we want to rely on the Department of Defense for an even larger fraction of our technology? I used to work for a DARPA contractor. They're not the world's most efficient way to develop technology. We use DARPA for blue-sky things the market doesn't invest in naturally, not because it's a great way to develop new technology.

Linux started as a personal hobby, and the incentive structure has always relied heavily on people scratching their own itches. Would either have served the home computer user market like Windows did? An incentive scheme that relies on government funding or personal hobbies results in very different software than one where a customer can pay a vendor for a piece of software. And I think there is much to be said about how the latter incentive model incentivizes the creation of software that the public wants rather than say what is most useful to the military.

It's interesting to see how recent developments built on Linux have been monetized. Nobody can make money selling Linux directly to cell phone vendors, like Microsoft did selling Windows to PC vendors, so what you have instead is a platform, Android, based entirely on the perpetuation of Google's search/advertising empire. Instead of paying cash for an OS, people pay in the form of their privacy, because that's something that can be monetized in a world where software cannot be monetized. Is that better?

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The author of the cited article is Rick Falkvinge, founder of the Swedish Pirate Party, so not exactly an unbiased source. Source bias is a concern when the source is supplying unverifiable facts. When a source is supplying reasoning, it can be evaluated for consistency and validity independent of the source and attacking the source is just the ad hominem fallacy. Incidentally, who do you think would be making anti-…

A strawman is when you take a weak argument that opponents never made and proceed to knock it down, then use the failure of the weak argument to argue that a stronger argument is also wrong. In this case, the positions being attacked are ones that have actually been taken by industry supporters at various points during lobbying efforts to pass copyright legislation. Really? You can cite a lobbyist who actually claime…

That's a fair point, but it's not a counter to my argument. There is nothing whatsoever about today's copyright law that stops someone from funding completely new works using alternative business models and giving those works away such that they can be freely distributed. If there are alternative business models that really are as effective as copyright or more so in incentivising the creation and distribution of useful works, why aren't we seeing vast amounts of such work, funded by such alternative models, in the age of the Internet?

That's pretty easy - the return for the creator is higher with copyright than without. Hence, in the current system, there is no incentive for alternative models to really develop (outside of some niches --- software is maybe a limited counterexample, with licences like the GPL demonstrating what might happen if copyright did not exist). Also, your argument does not take into account the fact that without copyright derivative works would be utilized to a much fuller extent.

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd make a blanket response to your "Shame if you..." points as follows: Maybe those ships have sailed and society has no need of those things anymore. If society needs those things it will find a way to pay for them. If it can't, it doesn't need them. An industry's failure to create a sustainable business model in the face of the reality that technology has created isn't a failing of the technology. It would be nice…

If society needs those things it will find a way to pay for them. If it can't, it doesn't need them. I don't accept your premise. The situation is too similar to a tragedy of the commons, with a large dose of ignorance mixed in: most people outside the creative industries have no idea how much hard work by how many different kinds of people ultimately contributes to that smash hit music recording or novel or computer…

Can you explain why a patronage model is unable to solve these problems?

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#26

Imagine if, before intellectual property, you put 20 smart people in a room, and tell them to come up with solutions to add incentives for creative works. None of them would have come up with "Hey! Why don't we grant inventors monopolies over inventions! We could increase the ammount and quality of inventions by limiting what others can invent!". No one would ever think that's a good idea. It's completely backwards a…

The article was about copyright which protects original works of authorship, not patents which protect inventions.

Every investor asks how defensible is your company. For certain products: drugs, microprocessors, and countless other capital intensive products patents protection is one of the important mechanisms for defending marketshare.

For example, it takes tens of millions of dollars to design a new drug and get it through trails. If competitors could just copy it as soon as it was released, the company that did the original work could not recoup its R&D costs and would eventually go broke. Without patent protection, no one would invest in companies that designed new drugs and innovation would stagnate.

Copyright provides a defense mechanism for creative companies like Disney. Again, it takes tens (to hundreds) of millions of dollars to develop a movie. If anyone could just copy it and sell it, Disney would could not recoup its production costs. No one would buy Disney stock. Creative expression would stagnate.

Are there problems with the current patent and copyright laws? Yes.

But the fundamental protections they were intended to provide are still necessary for innovation and creation to flourish in a market economy.

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#27
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. It's about preventing free-riding. You think any sensible VC would have invested in Microsoft if there was nothing preventing Tandy, etc, from buying a single IBM machine, copying the OS off the disks, and selling as many machines with Windows loaded as they wanted without paying any licensing fees to Microsoft? As for YC, etc... What a ridiculous bit of self-important…

>Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. It's about preventing free-riding. Why is free-riding bad unless it reduces the incentive for innovation? If half the world can free-ride on something with no marginal cost that will be produced regardless of the free-riding, the result is greater economic efficiency. >You think any sensible VC would have invested in Microsoft if there was nothing preventing Tandy, etc…

Great points.

I'd also add that if anything copyright has left us poorer because it promotes software and other content that doesn't permit free-riding. GNU/Linux and BSD probably would have occurred much sooner and become the dominant platform in the world if copyright had not afforded Microsoft the money to spend on every which way to compete besides simply building a better product.

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#28
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. It's about preventing free-riding. You think any sensible VC would have invested in Microsoft if there was nothing preventing Tandy, etc, from buying a single IBM machine, copying the OS off the disks, and selling as many machines with Windows loaded as they wanted without paying any licensing fees to Microsoft? As for YC, etc... What a ridiculous bit of self-important…

Copyright isn't about incentivizing innovation. "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." -- United States Constitution

The Constitution was written long before copyright and patent were put on sound economic footing.

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The author of the cited article is Rick Falkvinge, founder of the Swedish Pirate Party, so not exactly an unbiased source. Source bias is a concern when the source is supplying unverifiable facts. When a source is supplying reasoning, it can be evaluated for consistency and validity independent of the source and attacking the source is just the ad hominem fallacy. Incidentally, who do you think would be making anti-…

A strawman is when you take a weak argument that opponents never made and proceed to knock it down, then use the failure of the weak argument to argue that a stronger argument is also wrong. In this case, the positions being attacked are ones that have actually been taken by industry supporters at various points during lobbying efforts to pass copyright legislation. Really? You can cite a lobbyist who actually claime…

>You can cite a lobbyist who actually claimed that without copyright, there was no way for any artist to make money? Or that with free sharing, no-one at all would spend money on entertainment? Or that no-one at all creates new art without the financial incentive?

I'll grant you that the phrasing of the 'myths' on the site is more absolute than is generally used by copyright proponents, but the arguments are extremely common with minor qualifiers, e.g. that free sharing causes an extraordinarily large (albeit not 100%) reduction in the amount that people spend on entertainment (see generally http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/how-copyright-industries-con-...), and (most importantly) the counterarguments still apply to the less absolute versions of the argument more commonly encountered in the wild.

>If there are alternative business models that really are as effective as copyright or more so in incentivising the creation and distribution of useful works, why aren't we seeing vast amounts of such work, funded by such alternative models, in the age of the Internet?

There is an extent to which we are. See: YouTube, github, etc.

But a big piece of the trouble is that if you take any given business model, chances are the artist can make at least trivially more money by exercising some of the control the copyright monopoly provides over the work. And if copyright exists, why not do that? The consequence is that most business models are seen to involve copyright, even if they would work very nearly as well without it.

More than that, a large part of the benefit of not having copyright accrues to content consumers rather than producers. The argument is that the benefit consumers gain exceeds the benefit producers lose, i.e. that no copyright is only slightly worse for producers and vastly better for consumers, and the benefit producers lose is insufficient to significantly impact the number and quality of works produced.

That content producers can't actually be better off without copyright is of course necessarily the case for the reason you point out. If a situation arises where not having the rights granted under the copyright act is better for the content producer, the content producer can just license the rights to whoever he likes and be in the identical position as there would be with no copyright. So eliminating copyright wouldn't create any benefit for the content producer that they can't already obtain (ignoring for a moment that content producers are often simultaneously content consumers, e.g. when they produce derivative works). But that explains the lack of examples of content producers adopting non-copyright business models: They're the ones under copyright who decide whether to authorize alternative business models, but they aren't the ones who derive the bulk of the benefit from them. The argument is instead that the non-derivative content producers fail to experience a harm sufficient to outweigh the harm that copyright causes to the producers of derivative works and to consumers.

Re: Debunk The Myth That Copyright Is Needed To Make Money

#30

Imagine if, before intellectual property, you put 20 smart people in a room, and tell them to come up with solutions to add incentives for creative works. None of them would have come up with "Hey! Why don't we grant inventors monopolies over inventions! We could increase the ammount and quality of inventions by limiting what others can invent!". No one would ever think that's a good idea. It's completely backwards a…

You know what else is "counter-intuative"? The heliocentric world view. Also, relativity.

Imagine, if before Einstein, you put 20 smart people in a room and tell them to come up with ideas about mass and energy. None of them would...well, you get the idea.

Look, I'm not saying that copyright is all that. I'm just saying that if you want to argue against it, you need to find a basis MUCH more intelligent than the one you've selected, because if there's one thing that science has demonstrated about the world, it's that the intuitive thing is often wrong, and sometimes spectacularly so.

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