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The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

suggger.substack.com

21–30 of 154 posts

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#21
post #7

As a Brit, I'm not quite sure this article is right in it's declaration it's a universal "English" thing and not more "American English".

Yeah, same as a French speaker first living in the US, I have to sometimes refrain myself from calling things “just fine”, “will do” or “not bad”. These are still used in American English, but I tend to use them for cases were people normally use more positive/stronger version.

Like at a grocery store: “is that enough? That will do yes -> yes that’s perfect”

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#22
post #7

As a Brit, I'm not quite sure this article is right in it's declaration it's a universal "English" thing and not more "American English".

I would say Australian English relies on this negation even more than British English, to the point of being confusing without more cultural context.

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reckon a decept part of that is due to American English vs. British English. A great example of this is the Korean War, where a British brigadier in an extremely difficult situation told an American general "Things are a bit sticky, sir" - who interpreted it as "Could be better, but we're holding the line". The misunderstanding resulted in 500 dead and captured.

FWIW I’m not quite convinced there’s that much of a dialectical divide: “Not bad,” “he’s not wrong,” etc. sound entirely natural to me in American English.

"American English" has so many dialects and regional variations that aren't even mutually intelligible that making statements about it is pointless anyway.

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#24

As an Australian can I just say of this article: yeah nah

One thing I remember from languagelog is that almost all English speakers have a form of "yeah no" and they all think they invented it.

https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=30758

Might be Scottish.

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#25
post #7

As a Brit, I'm not quite sure this article is right in it's declaration it's a universal "English" thing and not more "American English".

I've had this discussion with American friends quite recently, it's very much an American English thing to not use those constructions. Certainly in British, New Zealand, and Australian English we do all the time.

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#26
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reckon a decept part of that is due to American English vs. British English. A great example of this is the Korean War, where a British brigadier in an extremely difficult situation told an American general "Things are a bit sticky, sir" - who interpreted it as "Could be better, but we're holding the line". The misunderstanding resulted in 500 dead and captured.

FWIW I’m not quite convinced there’s that much of a dialectical divide: “Not bad,” “he’s not wrong,” etc. sound entirely natural to me in American English.

The main difference may be in the range of meanings.

In a scale of 0 to 10 where "bad" is 0, one side will take "not bad" as a 4~5 while the other side meant it as 7~8.

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#27
This makes me think of a tool from semiotics called the Greimas square where you can have opposing concepts e.g. A and B (ugly & beautiful, for & against, legal & illegal).

At the surface level they can appear as binaries, but the negation of A is not equivalent to B and vice versa (e.g. illegal is not equivalent to not-legal) and encourages the consideration of more complex meta-concepts which at surface level seem like contradictions but are not (both beautiful and ugly, neither for or against).

--

Others have pointed out that English speakers do have the capacity, and do use these sort of double negatives that allow for this ambiguity and nuance, but if you are an English-only speaker, I do believe that there are concepts that are thick with meaning and the meaning cannot accurately be communicated through a translation - they come with a lot of contextual baggage where the meaning can not be communicated in words alone.

--

As a New Zealander who's lived in the U.S. for the last 15 years, I've realized in conversations with some native Americans where despite sincere (I think) efforts on both sides, I've not been able to communicate what I mean. I don't think it's anything to do with intelligence, but like author hints how language shapes how we think and therefore our realities.

--

I've never found poetry to be interesting, but recently I've come to appreciate how I think poets attempt to bypass this flaw of language, and how good poets sometimes seem to succeed!

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I’m not quite convinced there’s that much of a dialectical divide: “Not bad,” “he’s not wrong,” etc. sound entirely natural to me in American English.

"American English" has so many dialects and regional variations that aren't even mutually intelligible that making statements about it is pointless anyway.

I'd argue there's few Americans I flat out couldn't understand, even if it sounds like they're putting their words through a blender. And I say that having lived all over the country, Northeast, Midwest, West, and deep South. Accents can be thick but they're largely intelligible. Unlike, say, the Scots.

Especially compared to a language like German. I took 5 years of German and still didn't have a damn clue what anyone was saying if they were talking in dialect.

Re: The architecture of “not bad”: Decoding the Chinese source code of the void

#30
English does construct things this way, maybe just not with the frequency of Chinese. In fact, "not bad" is a common expression.

That said, it's true that certain flavors of US English, like marketing speak, will avoid many phrases in this family.

This is because many American English speakers will see expressions like this, particularly when not used in a directly complementary way, as either bureaucratic and avoidant or slightly pedantic or both. Because for many Americans, leaving ambiguity implies lack of confidence in the statement or evasiveness. (At the same time Americans also know not to trust confident statements - they are separately known to be "snake oily" - but we still tend to see marketing that avoids directness as even less trustworthy.)

So this mode of expression is much more common in personal speech.

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