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Datacenters in space aren't going to work

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Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#21

Post by LegionMammal978 »

awei wrote: post #15

The one thing that space has going for itself is space. You could have way bigger datacenters than on Earth and just leave them there, assuming Starship makes it cheap enough to get them there. I think it would maybe make sense if 2 things: - We are sure we will need a lot of gpus for the next 30-40 years. - We can make the solar panels + cooling + GPUs have a great life expectancy, so that we can just leave them up…

There is lots and lots and lots of space on Earth where hardly anyone is living. Cheap rural areas can support extremely large datacenters, limited only by availability of utilities and workers.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#22

Post by awei »

moffkalast wrote: post #19
awei wrote: post #15

The one thing that space has going for itself is space. You could have way bigger datacenters than on Earth and just leave them there, assuming Starship makes it cheap enough to get them there. I think it would maybe make sense if 2 things: - We are sure we will need a lot of gpus for the next 30-40 years. - We can make the solar panels + cooling + GPUs have a great life expectancy, so that we can just leave them up…

Launching a datacenter like that carries an absurd cost even with Starship type launchers. Unless TSMC moves its production to LEO it's a joke of a proposal. Underwater [0] is the obvious choice for both space and cooling. Seal the thing and chuck it next to an internet backbone cable. > More than half the world’s population lives within 120 miles of the coast. By putting datacenters underwater near coastal cities, d…

I like the underwater idea did not think of that

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#23

Post by ethmarks »

ReptileMan wrote: post #5
yardie wrote: post #4

I asked Google for more information about AI datacenter in space. This was the first sentence, 'AI data centers are being developed in space to handle the massive energy demands of AI, using solar power and the vacuum of space for cooling.' > After laughing at "the vacuum of space for cooling" I closed the page because there was nothing serious there. Basic high school physics student would be laughing at that senten…

You can radiate the excess energy away on the non-sun facing part. In theory.

There's no air and negligible thermal medium to convect heat away. The only way heat leaves is through convection from the extremely sparse atmosphere in low Earth orbit (less than a single atom per cubic millimeter) and through thermal radiation. Both of which are much, much slower than convection with water or air.

Space stations need enormous radiator panels to dissipate the heat from the onboard computers and the body heat of a few humans. Cooling an entire data center would require utterly colossal radiator panels.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#24

Post by LegionMammal978 »

dayjah wrote: post #13
ReptileMan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can radiate the excess energy away on the non-sun facing part. In theory.

Serious question: how in theory? I’m under the impression you need to radiate through matter (air, water, physical materials, etc). Is my understanding of the theory just wrong?

Heat conduction requires a medium, but radiation works perfectly fine in a vacuum. Otherwise the Sun wouldn't be able to heat up the Earth. The problem for spacecraft is that you're limited by how much IR radiation is passively emitted from your heat sinks, you can't actively expel heat any faster.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#25

Post by 0_____0 »

cactusfrog wrote: post #17
awei wrote: post #15

The one thing that space has going for itself is space. You could have way bigger datacenters than on Earth and just leave them there, assuming Starship makes it cheap enough to get them there. I think it would maybe make sense if 2 things: - We are sure we will need a lot of gpus for the next 30-40 years. - We can make the solar panels + cooling + GPUs have a great life expectancy, so that we can just leave them up…

We have tons of space on earth. Cooling in space would be so expensive.

Falcon heavy is only $1,500/kg to LEO. This rate is considerably undercut here on Earth by me, a weasley little nerd, who will move a kilogram in exchange for a pat on the head (if your praise is desirable) or up to tens of dollars (if it isn't).

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#26

Post by awei »

LegionMammal978 wrote: post #21
awei wrote: post #15

The one thing that space has going for itself is space. You could have way bigger datacenters than on Earth and just leave them there, assuming Starship makes it cheap enough to get them there. I think it would maybe make sense if 2 things: - We are sure we will need a lot of gpus for the next 30-40 years. - We can make the solar panels + cooling + GPUs have a great life expectancy, so that we can just leave them up…

There is lots and lots and lots of space on Earth where hardly anyone is living. Cheap rural areas can support extremely large datacenters, limited only by availability of utilities and workers.

We also have to build a lot more solar and nuclear in addition of the datacenters themselves, which we need to do anyway but it would compound the land we use for energy production.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#27

Post by ethmarks »

dayjah wrote: post #13
ReptileMan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can radiate the excess energy away on the non-sun facing part. In theory.

Serious question: how in theory? I’m under the impression you need to radiate through matter (air, water, physical materials, etc). Is my understanding of the theory just wrong?

There is some medium in low Earth orbit. Not all vacuums are created equal. However, LEO vacuum is still very, very sparse compared to the air and water we use for cooling systems.

The main way that heat dissipates from space stations and satellites is through thermal radiation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#28

Post by api »

morcus wrote: post #18
api wrote: post #8

What about on the Moon? My understanding is that heat is the killer. There you could sink pipes into the surface and use that as a heat sink. There are “peaks of eternal light” near the poles where you could get 24/7 solar power. Latency becomes high but you send large batches of work. Probably not at all economical compared to anywhere on Earth but the physics work better than orbit where you need giant heat sinks.

The Moon doesn't have a magnetic field, though, so the second half of the article discussing difficulties due to radiation would still apply, right?

Not if you bury it in regolith. That’s an idea for a Lunar base too. The design is called “Hobbit holes.” Bury the occupied structures in piles of basically any local mass you can bury them in.

It’s another huge problem for orbit though. Shielding would add a ton of mass and destroy the economics.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#29

Post by 0_____0 »

Infinity315 wrote: post #2

So many ideas involving AI just seems to be built off of sci-fi (not in a good way), including this one. Like sci-fi, there are little practical considerations made.

Sci-fi isn't even really about the tech. It's about what happens to us, humans, when the tech changes in dramatic ways. Sci-fi authors dream up types of technology that create new social orders, factions, rifts, types of interpersonal relationships, types of fascism, where the unforseen consequences of human ingenuity hoist us upon our collective petard.

But these baffoons only see the blinky shiney and completely miss the point of the stories. They have a child's view of SF the way that men in their teens and 20d thought they were supposed to be like Tyler Durden.

Re: Datacenters in space aren't going to work

#30

Post by adamwong246 »

morcus wrote: post #18
api wrote: post #8

What about on the Moon? My understanding is that heat is the killer. There you could sink pipes into the surface and use that as a heat sink. There are “peaks of eternal light” near the poles where you could get 24/7 solar power. Latency becomes high but you send large batches of work. Probably not at all economical compared to anywhere on Earth but the physics work better than orbit where you need giant heat sinks.

The Moon doesn't have a magnetic field, though, so the second half of the article discussing difficulties due to radiation would still apply, right?

We will need to develop very robust, space-worthy electronics eventually. We can't rely on natural magnetic fields forever.
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