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Orion 1.0

blog.kagi.com

21–30 of 283 posts

Re: Orion 1.0

#21
I hope I don't come across too harsh in my criticism here, but this is in my wheelhouse and I like to keep tabs on the privacy browser market in comparison to Waterfox.

> A bold technical choice: WebKit, not another Chromium clone

I don't find this a bold technical choice at all for a macOS only browser? I think this would be more impressive if it was Windows as well, as back (maybe ~5 or so years ago) when I was investigating WebKit on Windows, builds were not on an equal playing field[1]. So the engineering to get that up and running would be impressive.

> Speed by nature

Unfortunately, as of 16:40 UTC, I am unable to run the browser (installer?) to benchmark it due to "An error occurred while parsing the update feed.", but I recall 2 years ago when I tested Orion it was the slowest of all the browsers on macOS and Safari had quite a lead. I'd also be curious, being based on WebKit, how much faster it will actually be on macOS vs Safari?

I dropped speed as a focus point on Waterfox after compilation flags started making less of a difference compared to the actual architectural changes Mozilla were making for Firefox.

> Privacy etc

I think comparing to other major browsers such as Chrome the points are valid, but against Safari I'm not convinced it holds up as much. I know there is some telemetry related to Safari, but privacy is a big selling point for Safari as well and I'd be curious to see actual comparisons to that?

Safari includes iCloud Privacy Relay (MPR based on MASQUE[2]) and Oblivious DNS[3] - arguably two very valuable features that a company at a scale like Apple can subsidise.

The entire AI section also feels like trying to have it both ways as well. They criticise other browsers for rushing AI features, position themselves as the "secure" alternative, then immediately say they'll integrate AI "as it matures." This reads more like "we're behind on AI features" than a principled stance. If security is the concern, explain your threat model and what specific architectural decisions you're making differently? Currently Firefox has kept AI out of the "browser core" as it's been put, and I don't see them ever changing that.

Kudos that they have >2000 people paying for the browser directly, but I will say it doesn't excite me to see another closed source browser entering the market (I don't see any mention here of open-source apart from mention of WebKit being open source).

I do realise this is more a marketing post than an actual technical deep dive, but so much is just a rehash of every feature almost every modern web browser has?

I'll keep updating this comment as and when I can explore the browser itself a bit more.

[1] https://fujii.github.io/2019/07/05/webkit-on-windows/

[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/masque/about/

[3] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3340301.3341128

Re: Orion 1.0

#22

> Most people switch browsers for one reason: speed. Is that true? Maybe it is and I'm out of the loop but I can't remember the last time someone complained about browser speed. The bottleneck seems to be website bloat more than anything else. Would love to see this argument quantified.

I have definitely switched in iOS to orion for the support of firefox and chrome extensions. Have not the slightest idea how different browsers in mobile compare in speed. But if it was abysmally slow I would have had seconds thoughts about it probably.

Re: Orion 1.0

#23

I've attempted to switch to Orion on iOS a few times in the past and could never quite stick with it due to reliability issues. I'm giving it another try now to see if this 1.0 release gets it over that hurdle. Vivaldi is still a lot more polished than Orion on mobile, but Orion's support for Chrome extensions is a pretty compelling feature. I'm a very happy Kagi search user, so I'm rooting for them to succeed here.

I see this sentiment expressed often here, but I have never experienced a single issue using Orion on iOS. I've been using it for 3-4 months now. With uBlock Origin it actually makes it possible to use the web on iOS.

Re: Orion 1.0

#25
I'd love to use Orion but it's just too buggy for me. I downloaded the iOS app to try it out and immediately noticed that when typing in the URL bar, three quarters of it is covered by the toolbar above the keyboard.

Re: Orion 1.0

#26
post #13
post #3

For macOS.

I know speed to market is important, but it's always a huge turn off to see new desktop apps be non multi-platform. It makes me question if other OS platforms are really a priority, even if they get added later.

Why do you want to use the same browser on all platforms. Diversity is a strength.

Re: Orion 1.0

#27

I've attempted to switch to Orion on iOS a few times in the past and could never quite stick with it due to reliability issues. I'm giving it another try now to see if this 1.0 release gets it over that hurdle. Vivaldi is still a lot more polished than Orion on mobile, but Orion's support for Chrome extensions is a pretty compelling feature. I'm a very happy Kagi search user, so I'm rooting for them to succeed here.

We rewrote a large part of the code to make it more reliable and faster. I suggest downloading version 1.4, which just came out, to see for yourself (even if a few fixes related to Liquid Glass still need to be fixed ... by Apple). https://apps.apple.com/us/app/orion-browser-by-kagi/id148449...

Re: Orion 1.0

#28

I've attempted to switch to Orion on iOS a few times in the past and could never quite stick with it due to reliability issues. I'm giving it another try now to see if this 1.0 release gets it over that hurdle. Vivaldi is still a lot more polished than Orion on mobile, but Orion's support for Chrome extensions is a pretty compelling feature. I'm a very happy Kagi search user, so I'm rooting for them to succeed here.

I see this sentiment expressed often here, but I have never experienced a single issue using Orion on iOS. I've been using it for 3-4 months now. With uBlock Origin it actually makes it possible to use the web on iOS.

It doesn’t lose the tabs at the end of the tab list, for you? Tabs just disappearing after being opened is a daily issue, for me.

Re: Orion 1.0

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this sentiment expressed often here, but I have never experienced a single issue using Orion on iOS. I've been using it for 3-4 months now. With uBlock Origin it actually makes it possible to use the web on iOS.

It doesn’t lose the tabs at the end of the tab list, for you? Tabs just disappearing after being opened is a daily issue, for me.

I never have more than a few tabs open, so I don't see that.
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