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Why top firms fire good workers

rochester.edu

21–30 of 263 posts

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#21
post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

This definitely explains why India is so dysfunctional.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#22
post #14

As I understand it, the process is known as up or out ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out ) and exists due to a the known corporate structure required to do consulting work. I have no clue about its effectiveness, but all the work I've ever seen done by Deloitte, McKinsey, or PWC was mediocre at best which to me would signal that the process probably rewards a different incentive set than they intend it to. For…

> there is some utility to having an outsider provide the information

That shouldn't be happening. This is managerial incompetence normalized. Why does the management of a company not trust its own people? They should have hired their people from "the outside" already. The correlation you're seeing is people who are not leaders but bosses in charge of teams. Good leaders don't need external validation, they either trust their team or make the problem fully outsourced to an external team like a consultant firm.

> all the work I've ever seen done by Deloitte, McKinsey, or PWC was mediocre at best

That tracks with my experience. Everyone I've met whom I know are competent at what they do have had similar remarks on these firms.

From my observation, they are part of a larger endemic issue of metric-chasing. They come up with a list of check boxes where if you follow them like a formula you'll achieve measurable results. Everything they do revolves around measurements and meeting measurement targets.

The problem is, when targets aren't met, then their method and advice is put into question. Therefore there is a perverse incentive at play where on one hand they do really want you to succeed, but on the other hand getting into the weeds and figuring out why you can't meet the targets deviates from their check-list approach. It will look like they advised you to do something, and now they're telling you you should do something else, it will look like they don't know what they're doing, and the one cardinal rule of consulting is you never say you don't know (or appear like it). The result is they water down what needs to be done, and they'll be flexible with interpretations of what counts as measurable.

In summary, I would like to say there is a place for these firms, but I won't, because I don't know if that is even true. I'll say that an outside firm will never have your company/team as their #1 priority; there will absolutely and without exception be scenarios where it will be a conflict of interest for them to do something that will benefit your team/org.

And using these companies to justify decisions, or back up decisions.. that again is part of the leadership endemic. People who do that are not leaders. They're bosses covering their own you-know-what. My opinion is that they facilitate poor/weak management culture.

Talent-wise, there is no doubt they hire the most talented and experienced people. But it almost feels like hiring a navy seal to be your personal trainer, but if you do what they say and you're not seeing results, they're not allowed to figure out what really is happening and correct their own advice. And to start with, they won't even aim to make you look like a navy seal, but work out some formula most people can work with, so the whole navy seal thing is just for show anyways.

Sorry for rambling on, maybe I'm too biased with my own experience here.

EDIT: I just wanted to add: If any company is firing the bottom performers, their management don't understand the problem of perverse incentives. Actual performance no longer matters, performance that can fool the measurement system sufficiently enough is what matters. The metrics will look good, revenue will be mediocre and long term sustainability will degrade. Good or bad, metrics and measurements shouldn't be used to make decisions, they can only be used to ask questions! An employee can have bad metrics if they're spending all their time helping other team members or solving yet-to-be-measured problems. Matter of fact, I would even dare say that metrics/measurements/KPOs shouldn't even be considered at all unless goals aren't being met. If your golden goose is laying bigger and bigger eggs, don't perform explorative surgery on it.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#23
post #14

As I understand it, the process is known as up or out ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out ) and exists due to a the known corporate structure required to do consulting work. I have no clue about its effectiveness, but all the work I've ever seen done by Deloitte, McKinsey, or PWC was mediocre at best which to me would signal that the process probably rewards a different incentive set than they intend it to. For…

Anecdotal: consultancy gig in the 90's, when you could still smoke in the building. My boss shmoozed their bosses, I spent most of my days in the smoking room talking to random employees. After a week we presented a report that was hailed as "brilliantly insightful" and the client was amazed at how we'd managed to grasp the problems the company was facing in such a short time, and come up with brilliant, workable, solutions.

Literally what you said: getting paid to tell management what every employee knows and has been trying to tell them for years.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#24
post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

This is outright stupid to believe. I have been working for past 15yrs and worked across startups to Top 5(FAANG), and never seen or gone through this.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#25
post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

Why do you think this is special to India? Anywhere there are humans, you will see the same behaviour.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#26
This ignores everyone else's agency in this decision.

The top employee is probably getting noticed and headhunted by the clients.

The top employee is probably getting pissed off at the mediocrity surrounding them, and annoyed at constantly having to share credit for their hard work with their bad manager who did nothing.

The top employee quickly realises that this is a badly-paid gig, and plans to spend the minimum time doing it that will confer the necessary Resume points.

The worst employee has no other options, is scared of losing this gig because they struggle to find other gigs, enjoys being able to hide their mediocrity in the team, and will stay as long as possible. They'll probably end up being promoted.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#27
What a ridiculous article. The author makes zero mention of politics. In many cases, you are forced to choose the least worst person to fire. Then, politics plays a huge role. If you are the manager forced to choose one (and you have no bad ones), then you choose the one who you like the least (personally). Big investment banks cut roughly 5% of their lowest performers each year. You always can see a few people that should not have been cut, but their politics was too weak to save them.

I've seen this written about before... roughly, after a few years into your corporate career, your job splits into two parts: the skill part (your effort and ability to get stuff done) and the political part (navigating humans in a corporate hierarchy). Say what you like about the political part, for most people, it is unavoidable.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#28
post #20
post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

Why would a manager who’s able to claim the credit of their reports in order to advance their own career then PIP the best ones? Wouldn’t they keep them around to keep claiming credit from? I’m not doubting your story (I’ve never worked in India) I just don’t understand the incentive to fire a good worker in this scenario.

They already got promoted and might not be managing the same team, plus it sells the lie better, and most people wouldn’t go along with this forever and might start claiming things so they have to discredit you first.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#29
post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

Doesn't make sense to me, if the manager is promoted, wouldn't he want to bring good talents along, so that they can help him to promote further?

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#30
post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

But this is how it should be. Very best of the best start their own startups. Second best, start their own consultancies. Next on, work independently. Next on, are principals in small firms - they are the irreplaceable singular employees that the owner of a small firm wholly depends on. And then the mediocre and the bad ones, that work in largest firms. This is how it's always been.
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