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What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

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Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#21

Post by tr45872267 »

tehjoker wrote: post #13
Aurornis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t. The movements pushing these ideas are against the idea of aptitude testing. Many of them are even against the idea of having advanced classes for those who are ahead. It’s not a niche ideology, sadly. It’s going mainstream. A core part of Zohran Mamdani’s platform was his goal to phase out gifted education programs, for example.

There is a silver lining though, when everyone is in the same class, better off people don't think they can escape and push to make the program better for everyone.

They can and do. Private schools already exist.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#22

Post by Aurornis »

tehjoker wrote: post #13
Aurornis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t. The movements pushing these ideas are against the idea of aptitude testing. Many of them are even against the idea of having advanced classes for those who are ahead. It’s not a niche ideology, sadly. It’s going mainstream. A core part of Zohran Mamdani’s platform was his goal to phase out gifted education programs, for example.

There is a silver lining though, when everyone is in the same class, better off people don't think they can escape and push to make the program better for everyone.

> better off people don't think they can escape and push to make the program better for everyone.

Your solution is to make the smart kids suffer so maybe they can force the educators to do better? That’s insane. It’s also not going to happen.

Do you know what will happen? Any parent with the means will scrape together cash to pull their students out and go to private schools. Or they’ll hire tutors after school and force their kids to sit down and learn what they should have been learning during the day.

This fantasy where the smart kids rally together to overhaul the system because we banned them from taking advanced classes is a delusion.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#23

Post by NickC25 »

zecg wrote: post #10

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” I think the answer is Boeing

Ironically enough, they just got a Pentagon contract for 6th generation fighters.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#24

Post by perrysmith »

bena wrote: post #12
skeezyjefferson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But SAT and ACT scores are the most reliable predictors of a student’s math ability, the report found...." how else do they gauge someone's math ability then?

One could use course grades. The problem with that is the variance in instructor quality between institutions.

That’s why it isn’t a reliable indicator of aptitude. A student who earns all A’s at a top level public school and a student who earns all A’s at a low level public school aren’t necessarily operating at the same academic level.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#25

Post by Aurornis »

triceratops wrote: post #19
Aurornis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t. The movements pushing these ideas are against the idea of aptitude testing. Many of them are even against the idea of having advanced classes for those who are ahead. It’s not a niche ideology, sadly. It’s going mainstream. A core part of Zohran Mamdani’s platform was his goal to phase out gifted education programs, for example.

> his goal to phase out gifted education programs Gifted education programs for kindergarten. I don't necessarily agree with that either but it's important to be accurate when talking about proposed policies. The man isn't talking about taking away AP algebra. Most kindergarteners still need to be told not to eat their boogers.

“Phase out” means gradually remove.

Kindergarten is where the phase out starts. That’s how you phase something out. You don’t take it away from everyone all at once because that triggers outrage. You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on. He explicitly uses the phrase “phase out” for this reason.

Read more of his platform documents, including the ones before everything got watered down for his website.

The “it’s just for kindergarten” is just positive spin on the first step of the goal of phasing it out in general.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#26

Post by triceratops »

Aurornis wrote: post #25
triceratops wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his goal to phase out gifted education programs Gifted education programs for kindergarten. I don't necessarily agree with that either but it's important to be accurate when talking about proposed policies. The man isn't talking about taking away AP algebra. Most kindergarteners still need to be told not to eat their boogers.

“Phase out” means gradually remove. Kindergarten is where the phase out starts. That’s how you phase something out. You don’t take it away from everyone all at once because that triggers outrage. You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on. He explicitly uses the phrase “phase out” for this reason. Read more of…

> Read more of his platform documents, including the ones before everything got watered down for his website

Do you have links?

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#27

Post by Theodores »

How much mathematics is needed anyway?

In the day job, how many people have to use maths skills beyond arithmetic?

What about trigonometry?

Differential equations?

Integration and calculus?

To be honest, if I am using Boolean Logic then that might as well be 'advanced mathematics', far beyond the comprehension of non-coders. Even simple trigonometry isn't so simple to most people.

Clearly we need some people on the planet able to do more than basic arithmetic, however, what is the point in trying to teach the whole population how to do differential equations given the lack of workplace opportunities to use such knowledge?

The why question isn't explained with maths beyond the theoretical 'yep, you will earn more'. Too many maths textbooks are utterly abstract, you might as well be learning cuneiform for the amount of practical use cases.

It seems to me that the policy makers and journalists that complain about the demise of maths skills aren't doing a lot of maths themselves yet they want to force maths on the masses, as if it was good for you in a 'eat your greens' type of way.

Maths is hard and it really does not suit a lot of people. Fluency in maths is only attainable by a few, the majority that can do maths need a lot of armbands, whether that be calculators, text books or internet crib sheets. Then there is everyone else, not even floundering, just giving it a miss.

Rather than forcing the entire population to be maths geniuses, which will never happen, maths needs to be a specialist subject chosen by those that know what it can be used for, and with ambitions to take a career path where maths happens.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#28

Post by lotsofpulp »

Aurornis wrote: post #8
jackallis wrote: post #4

".....In 2020, system leaders voted to phase standardized-test scores out of admissions decisions. They argued that the tests worsened racial divides and unfairly privileged wealthy students. But SAT and ACT scores are the most reliable predictors of a student’s math ability, the report found...."

The war on admissions testing is one of the worst education trends. I couldn’t believe it when it was first proposed, but I was even more shocked when the trend started to spread. It does appear to be reversing a little bit in some places as schools realize they were fooled by people pushing ideology over data and results, but it’s going to take a while. For those who aren’t in the loop: There’s an ideological push t…

I wonder if college administrators are using discrimination as an excuse to decrease standards to increase number of students, which then increases their pay and job security. It is well known that not only did number of young people peak, but also that outside of the top 20 or so, college is nowhere near worth the tuition prices.

The only other option is for college administrators to be disturbingly stupid.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#29

Post by randycupertino »

NickC25 wrote: post #23
zecg wrote: post #10

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” I think the answer is Boeing

Ironically enough, they just got a Pentagon contract for 6th generation fighters.

Benefits of moving their HQ to Washington DC for closer proximity to lobbying starting to pay off! Relocating corporate to DC puts their execs within arm's reach of the ones who approve their contracts, oversee it's safety regulations and bail it out when the plane's software causes crashes.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#30

Post by bryanlarsen »

tr45872267 wrote: post #21
tehjoker wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a silver lining though, when everyone is in the same class, better off people don't think they can escape and push to make the program better for everyone.

They can and do. Private schools already exist.

AFAICT many private schools are worse than public schools. Parents put kids into private schools so that they get good grades and extra-curriculars to let them get into the good universities. So that's what private schools sell -- good grades. It's less important that they have the education that the good grades imply.
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