Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#21

Post by screenoridesagb » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. How do Europeans get rich enough to have that life you dream about in Europe once you're rich enough from making money in America to move there?

[dead]

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#22

Post by WillAdams » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

siavosh wrote: post #5

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

I’m reading a book by a British author called Against the Machine which you may enjoy. It distills this pervasive unease so many have felt of this growth at all cost system that has been rapidly eating the world. The environmental, humanistic, moral, and spiritual costs of this “machine” is sometimes hard to see when it’s all we’ve known.

Society as a whole needs to decide what is to be done with the additional resources generated by on-going technological efficiencies and how the societal aspects of such will be handled.

I wish that folks would consider reducing the work week, or universal basic income --- the total amount of human labour necessary to feed, clothe, house, and entertain humanity is decreasing --- how does society handle vast swathes of the population being not just unemployed, but unemployable, and to the wealthy, unnecessary?

One view on this is to be seen in Marshall Brain's novella "Manna":

https://marshallbrain.com/manna

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#23

Post by HPsquared » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

vatsachak wrote: post #8

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Have you travelled Europe? Other than in some countries like Germany or Ireland the job situation is quite bleak. For example, look at average wages vs living costs in Madrid

Living costs in Ireland are crazy though. Dublin is more expensive (on average) than London, I'd say.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#24

Post by hartator » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:48 PM UTC

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday.

Why not directly work in the EU?

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#25

Post by dnissley » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

vatsachak wrote: post #8

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Have you travelled Europe? Other than in some countries like Germany or Ireland the job situation is quite bleak. For example, look at average wages vs living costs in Madrid

That's why you need to get rich before moving to Europe

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#26

Post by stego-tech » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

I hate these hit pieces against the EU, but I’ll give OP credit that theirs actually has a mixture of credulous proposals (Federal preemption, ending directives, commercial court) alongside the usual pro-billionaire insanity (a 28th regime just for business? Removing regulations on product standards? Are you fucking kidding me here?).

Europe has its fair share of issues, but a lot of them can still be traced back to unresolved wealth pumps and neoliberal policies weakening the state and labor force in favor of business and billionaire interests. There’s also unresolved questions about how much of America’s economic growth is tangible versus theoretical, given the dilapidated state of America’s infrastructure and ballooning national debt problem. Neutering what makes Europeans so much happier than their American peers just for the sake of “productivity” comes off as gallingly tone deaf to the practical realities on the ground.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#27

Post by mono442 » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:49 PM UTC

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Are you ready to live in a 300 sq feet shoebox apartment instead of a normal single family house?

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#28

Post by otikik » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

> undocumented immigrants which function as disposable citizens

I am afraid that is not a problem exclusive to the United States. Perhaps it is more prevalent there, I don't have the numbers, but it also happens in Europe. What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions.

> I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy.

Supporting a negligent leader so that he gets elected can undermine it.

Not that I think that is ethical, either. But it is more "efficient", in terms of resources spent.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#29

Post by siavosh » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

saubeidl wrote: post #9

siavosh wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m reading a book by a British author called Against the Machine which you may enjoy. It distills this pervasive unease so many have felt of this growth at all cost system that has been rapidly eating the world. The environmental, humanistic, moral, and spiritual costs of this “machine” is sometimes hard to see when it’s all we’ve known.

On a very related note, I can recommend Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher. To quote Wiki: > It explores Fisher's concept of "capitalist realism", which he describes as "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it." > The book investigates what Fisher describes as the widespread effects o…

Thanks added to my list. I do believe that with the inevitable obsolescence of most work the system will continue to destabilize and some alternative will arise (maybe not in my lifetime) although I’m not optimistic it won’t by dystopian.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#30

Post by vjvjvjvjghv » Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

"I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy"

I think Europe could do much better without destroying safety nets. Starting a business should be easier and hiring people should be easier too. And in general a little more ambition couldn't hurt.