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After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

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Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#21

Post by arethuza »

akudha wrote: post #15
u_sama wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Syria 2011 > Lebanon 1970s > Algeria 1990s > Afghanistan 1990s A few simple examples of nations who have went through rather devastating wars and civil wars including Islamists who's main ideology is that anything pre-Islamic is to be destroyed as it might lead to heresy, and who go out of their way to destroy historical places and artifacts. And if not war, then the fact that the cultures of those areas traditiona…

Can't this be on a case by case basis? After all, the British stole from so many places in the world - what if they returned stolen items to countries (India for example) that are interested and capable of safeguarding artifacts and didn't return to those countries where they might get destroyed (Afghanistan etc)?

What about examples where there was nothing like theft involved and no colonisation - the Pergamon Altar in the amazing Pergamon Museum in Berlin is a good example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pergamon_Altar

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#22

Post by masfoobar »

gef wrote: post #2

I wonder if the British Museum will do the right thing and return previously stolen artefacts?

I'll admit that I might misunderstand the point but surely there is a gray area of what is considered "stolen" and what is "preserved"

Humans or groups can be responsible for many foolish acts. Stealing is one of those traits. I am open to accepting this when referring to the British Museum. However, I am also open to groups of people DESTROYING historical items all because they do not share their culture or religious views!

Again, I see no issue in Countries like UK returning items that's not theirs but only under grounds that they will be SAFE in their new (returned) home. However, the middle east is mixed with different cultures -- languages and religions. It's also a place of much conflict.

As a British man myself and interested in Ancient Egyptian mythology, I would be just as much heartbroken of ancient items being destroyed. You don't have to be an Egyptian who's lineage traces back to this historical times.

Its sad, really. One of these days those pyramids will likely be destroyed. Perhaps by War. Perhaps by religious uprising.

Again - is "stolen" correct, here? If the British did not take any of these back with them, would many of these items still be around? It could have been destroyed of gone missing.

Just a thought.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#24

Post by jkmcf »

masfoobar wrote: post #22
gef wrote: post #2

I wonder if the British Museum will do the right thing and return previously stolen artefacts?

I'll admit that I might misunderstand the point but surely there is a gray area of what is considered "stolen" and what is "preserved" Humans or groups can be responsible for many foolish acts. Stealing is one of those traits. I am open to accepting this when referring to the British Museum. However, I am also open to groups of people DESTROYING historical items all because they do not share their culture or religiou…

I would add that these finds would, and many did, find there way to the black market, ending up in private collections, which is almost as bad as their destruction.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#25

Post by pdabbadabba »

wbl wrote: post #20
pdabbadabba wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using the word "stolen" here with a lot of conviction but, imho, not a lot of rigor. In what sense did people "own" the artifacts that the British removed from Egypt? Who owned them? If nobody owned them, how were they "stolen"? That's the weak version of the problem. The stronger version: how is it the case that Egypt, or Egyptians, today "own" something that has been in the British museum far longer than any…

The Egyptian peasant lives today much the same as his ancestors did. It's a remarkable degree of continuity! And some works were removed contrary to law quite recently like the head of Nefertiti.

Interesting points, but can you explain how they apply here? It's interesting and, afaik, true that modern Egyptians's lives today are more similar to their ancient ancestors' than you might expect (moreso than in many other nations). But how should we think about the relevance of this fact to debates about looted artifacts? Does the fact that they still work fields irrigated by the Nile suffice to give them a claim to repatriate artifacts taken generation ago? (Perhaps there are more similarities than this. I don't mean to be flippant on this point, I just am not an expert on all the similarities.) Or is it significant that they have generally abandoned the ancient Egyptian religion in favor of Islam, have a President rather than a Pharaoh, own televisions and smartphones, are now generally safe from crocodiles, have controlled the Nile's annual flooding (whose volatility was a dominant source of danger and drama in ancient life), etc.?

Regarding the Bust of Nefertiti, I guess it's debatable whether 100 years ago qualifies as "quite recently," but I suppose it does seem like yesterday when one is thinking about ancient Egypt! In any case, the analysis certainly may differ depending on the artifact. If the the date of the looting makes a difference I think that only supports the general thrust of my argument.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#26

Post by Podrod »

comrade1234 wrote: post #11

something that confuses me a bit... I was in Egypt about two weeks before the arab spring revolution and not too long after terrorists shot a bunch of tourists in the Luxor area. There were very few tourists because of the terrorist attack, and so in Luxor my wife and I had a driver and a egyptoligist tour guide that normally works with large tour groups. They drove us around (with a handgun under the driver's seat a…

Only some items were stolen or damaged, not everything.

During the security turmoil following the 25 January Revolution, the museum was broken into on 28 January 2011, by unidentified individuals, and 54 artifacts were stolen. Zahi Hawass, the then director of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, stated "My heart is broken and my blood is boiling".[30] Hawass later told The New York Times that thieves looking for gold broke 70 objects, including two sculptures of the pharaoh Tutankhamun and took two skulls from a research lab, before being stopped as they left the museum.[31] In response, the military cordoned off the museum to secure it against looting and theft.[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Museum

And a page about the foreign exhibitions and tours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitions_of_artifacts_from_...

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#27

Post by Podrod »

arethuza wrote: post #21
akudha wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't this be on a case by case basis? After all, the British stole from so many places in the world - what if they returned stolen items to countries (India for example) that are interested and capable of safeguarding artifacts and didn't return to those countries where they might get destroyed (Afghanistan etc)?

What about examples where there was nothing like theft involved and no colonisation - the Pergamon Altar in the amazing Pergamon Museum in Berlin is a good example... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pergamon_Altar

Although the Pergamon Museum also has the Ishtar Gate which was basically smuggled out of Iraq brick by brick.

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#29

Post by lostlogin »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #19
jeromegv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! > then you visit the original country where it’s from and they themselves have nothing or very little left from that era. You seem to generalize quite a lot in order to validate your view point that everything stolen should stay stolen. Sometimes it's the entire opposite. It's not being shown anywhere, it's just hidden in a museum collection in the UK. In other ca…

You're using the word "stolen" here with a lot of conviction but, imho, not a lot of rigor. In what sense did people "own" the artifacts that the British removed from Egypt? Who owned them? If nobody owned them, how were they "stolen"? That's the weak version of the problem. The stronger version: how is it the case that Egypt, or Egyptians, today "own" something that has been in the British museum far longer than any…

If someone went to England and took the rocks from Stonehenge and carted them off to a museum overseas, that would surely be stealing?

Re: After delays, Egypt set for lavish opening of grand museum

#30

Post by lostlogin »

Jedd wrote: post #16
jeromegv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! > then you visit the original country where it’s from and they themselves have nothing or very little left from that era. You seem to generalize quite a lot in order to validate your view point that everything stolen should stay stolen. Sometimes it's the entire opposite. It's not being shown anywhere, it's just hidden in a museum collection in the UK. In other ca…

> We never fail to find someone to defend colonization! I think you are misrepresenting GP & parent's comments. Yes, absolutely, totally, Brits have a well-deserved reputation of colonisation. But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands? What moral right is exercised (o…

> But as a hypothetical conundrum, who would you return the relics from a long expired society to -- the current (arguably quite distinct, religiously & culturally) administrations of those lands?

Has this ever been in doubt? With Egyptian artifacts, they’d go to Egypt, with looted Greek artifacts they’d go to Greece. With the heads of Māori warriors, New Zealand Maori.

Are there any real world situations where it’s confusing as to who they would be returned to?

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