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Poison, Poison Everywhere

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Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#21

Post by jihadjihad »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #19
foofoo12 wrote: post #13

> This was lead poisoning. ... Nobody knew. Good article. But just to note, lead was already a known poison at the time when it was added to gasoline. Significant concerns were raised. Production was even halted for a while in the US due to health incidents.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

> Environmental historian J. R. McNeill opined that Midgley "had more adverse impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history", and Bill Bryson remarked that Midgley possessed "an instinct for the regrettable that was almost uncanny".

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#22

Post by walleeee »

teddyh wrote: post #6

Empowering individuals to solve collective problems rarely work. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31178680 > The appropriate solution is legislation.

> legislation

Perhaps more generally phrased as governance

Yes, the answer is not some business plan by which some can dodge disaster in an untrustworthy market, the answer is to recognize that this planet is a spaceship i.e. materially closed, and we are massively soiling the nest, microplastic is in steak because it's literally everywhere on the surface of the earth, etc.

Therefore, good ecological governance is a requirement, as is the analysis, as a public service, of the resources and ecosystems, and the services they provide human beings and our dependents, i.e. a democratic and just policy, not a lucrative plan to privatize yet more of public health

If one is convinced the best vehicle for the above in the near term is a business, then it had better have a different approach than is typical of personal health tech startups

Empowering individuals isn't worthless by any means but pitting one against another with asymmetric information is worse than worthless

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#23

Post by davnicwil »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #19
foofoo12 wrote: post #13

> This was lead poisoning. ... Nobody knew. Good article. But just to note, lead was already a known poison at the time when it was added to gasoline. Significant concerns were raised. Production was even halted for a while in the US due to health incidents.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

it's incredibly surprising to me that lead was added to gasoline specifically at all.

I'd always assumed it was some expensive-to-remove byproduct of manufacture or something, so they left it in to save costs despite the risks.

Why did this happen?

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#24

Post by JJMcJ »

davnicwil wrote: post #23
ants_everywhere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

it's incredibly surprising to me that lead was added to gasoline specifically at all. I'd always assumed it was some expensive-to-remove byproduct of manufacture or something, so they left it in to save costs despite the risks. Why did this happen?

Tetraethyl Lead was an octane raiser - an anti-knocking compound.

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#25

Post by pixl97 »

davnicwil wrote: post #23
ants_everywhere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

it's incredibly surprising to me that lead was added to gasoline specifically at all. I'd always assumed it was some expensive-to-remove byproduct of manufacture or something, so they left it in to save costs despite the risks. Why did this happen?

Lead in gas increased compression rations and allowed us to build higher horsepower engines. Lead is still used in avgas for this reason. Engine knock was a big problem at the time.

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#26

Post by ants_everywhere »

davnicwil wrote: post #23
ants_everywhere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

it's incredibly surprising to me that lead was added to gasoline specifically at all. I'd always assumed it was some expensive-to-remove byproduct of manufacture or something, so they left it in to save costs despite the risks. Why did this happen?

according to the article

> Oil companies and automobile manufacturers (especially General Motors, which owned the patent jointly filed by Kettering and Midgley) promoted the TEL additive as an inexpensive alternative superior to ethanol or ethanol-blended fuels, on which they could make very little profit.

Functionally, as others have commented, it is there to reduce knocking. But lead was used instead of ethanol (aka alcohol) because it was more profitable despite being poisonous.

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#27

Post by chasil »

davnicwil wrote: post #23
ants_everywhere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

it's incredibly surprising to me that lead was added to gasoline specifically at all. I'd always assumed it was some expensive-to-remove byproduct of manufacture or something, so they left it in to save costs despite the risks. Why did this happen?

As I understand it, both tetra ethyl lead and ethyl alcohol are anti-knock agents.

Lead was used because it was cheaper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiknock_agent

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#29

Post by vunderba »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #19
foofoo12 wrote: post #13

> This was lead poisoning. ... Nobody knew. Good article. But just to note, lead was already a known poison at the time when it was added to gasoline. Significant concerns were raised. Production was even halted for a while in the US due to health incidents.

Lead had been a known poison for nearly 2000 years when it was added to gasoline. The guy who owned the patent for leaded gasoline and who promoted its use even got lead poisoning himself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr .

That guy's entire wikipedia page is an almost surreal read. For introducing lead into gasoline and the proliferation of CFCs, he was termed a "one-man environmental disaster". His death is equally fascinating. He invented a mechanical device to help him out of bed because of his polio-related infirmity, and ended up getting strangled by it.

Re: Poison, Poison Everywhere

#30

Post by foresto »

andy99 wrote: post #11

This reminds me a bit of a private group that did a big study (I thought in SFBA) looking at the amount of microplastics in different stuff, for example delivered food. Just thinking about it because of the startup he mentioned and I was wondering if it was them, but can’t find the article now. I know it was discussed at length here. Edit: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42525633

I was just going to ask if this was it...

https://www.plasticlist.org/

...and then I saw your link. I'll leave this comment here for the convenience of others.

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