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A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

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Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#21

Post by robszumski »

stuff4ben wrote: post #16
Zigurd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a pretty harsh critic of Starlink. I don't think it's going to compete well against terrestrial wireless links, specifically 5G FWA. But if they can actually do something interesting with distributed SAR in a large constellation, that's one of those national security breakthroughs that's worth every penny.

> national security breakthroughs Can you explain what you mean by this? Still not sure how SAR would fit in here...

If a giant chunk of the constellation can act as a truly huge antenna, what can you get from that? Super high resolution? Seek/dwell time on a target that is effectively infinite?

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#22

Post by ajross »

iamnothere wrote: post #15
ajross wrote: post #13

I'm all for a good spy story, but this seems like a big shrug to me. Interference-sensitive satellite communication is done with directional dishes, who cares what some other satellite is transmitting? That's the kind of nonsense you already engineered around. And of course all communication managed by modern ICs is done with some kind of spread spectrum protocol with the property that "interference" is a routine/exp…

(1) Some older satellites are still in use and this may affect them, especially if it becomes more common. (2) Defending these norms is important to prevent chaos on the radio bands. If we can do this, why not China? Russia? Europe? Erosion of norms has real consequences when you are dealing with a scarce resource like RF spectrum.

I really think point 1 needs an example. Again, older satellites talk to dishes, not random off-axis antennas hundreds of miles away.

> Erosion of norms has real consequences when you are dealing with a scarce resource like RF spectrum.

So... no, that's wrong. Like 99% of all wireless data transferred anywhere is squeezed into a paltry 100 MHz in the 2.4 GHz ISM band, with no effective guardrails of any kind about who can use it, or with how many devices.

Technology fixed this problem, dedicated bands have little to no value anymore[1], haven't for like two decades now, and any discussion like this needs to treat with that as a prior.

Again, we all know this story isn't about rigorous adherence to international norms. It's about Musk doing shady spy stuff.

[1] Outside some otherwise important edge cases like radio astronomy which aren't "communication" as generally understood.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#23

Post by mdhb »

robszumski wrote: post #21
stuff4ben wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> national security breakthroughs Can you explain what you mean by this? Still not sure how SAR would fit in here...

If a giant chunk of the constellation can act as a truly huge antenna, what can you get from that? Super high resolution? Seek/dwell time on a target that is effectively infinite?

And we are going to put that in the hands of Elon musk? Are you fucking kidding me?

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#25

Post by iamnothere »

ajross wrote: post #22
iamnothere wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) Some older satellites are still in use and this may affect them, especially if it becomes more common. (2) Defending these norms is important to prevent chaos on the radio bands. If we can do this, why not China? Russia? Europe? Erosion of norms has real consequences when you are dealing with a scarce resource like RF spectrum.

I really think point 1 needs an example. Again, older satellites talk to dishes, not random off-axis antennas hundreds of miles away. > Erosion of norms has real consequences when you are dealing with a scarce resource like RF spectrum. So... no, that's wrong. Like 99% of all wireless data transferred anywhere is squeezed into a paltry 100 MHz in the 2.4 GHz ISM band, with no effective guardrails of any kind about wh…

> dedicated bands have little to no value anymore

Citation needed. Cellular devices are an obvious application that needs dedicated spectrum allocation. Amateur bands (including volunteer civil defense helpers) and private terrestrial radio systems count on their spectrum being clean enough for use. Emergency responders have critical radio systems with dedicated frequencies. Ships and airplanes use dedicated spectrum allocations for navigation and reporting their positions, weather satellites have dedicated bands, safety equipment like avalanche beacons have dedicated frequencies, and so on.

None of this stuff would work if there were a free-for-all competition for whoever could shout the loudest on each band. To say that these bands are not important (or even critical to life safety) just because more data goes over unlicensed spectrum is frankly ignorant.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#26

Post by Zigurd »

ACCount37 wrote: post #17
Zigurd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a pretty harsh critic of Starlink. I don't think it's going to compete well against terrestrial wireless links, specifically 5G FWA. But if they can actually do something interesting with distributed SAR in a large constellation, that's one of those national security breakthroughs that's worth every penny.

The issue with terrestrial wireless links is that you just aren't going to cover every inch of Earth's surface with terrestrial wireless links. At the same time: coverage comes cheap to Starlink. Which makes it perfect for serving areas no one wants to serve. Such as rural areas, anything outside the largest cities in underdeveloped countries, the open ocean, and so it goes.

Places only Starllink can reach are an insufficient and shrinking TAM. The only places a terrestrial wireless provider doesn't want to serve are places that can't afford FWA even though it costs less.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#27

Post by next_xibalba »

mdhb wrote: post #23
robszumski wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a giant chunk of the constellation can act as a truly huge antenna, what can you get from that? Super high resolution? Seek/dwell time on a target that is effectively infinite?

And we are going to put that in the hands of Elon musk? Are you fucking kidding me?

Is there a viable alternative?

SpaceX is the only launch provider and satellite operator that is progressing at a rapid pace and driving costs down.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#28

Post by dylan604 »

Weeenion wrote: post #19
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try destroying a can of soda with a laser pointer first…

Does your laser pointer has a hard upper Watt limit? Consumer grade / privat buyable laser can easily be bought. And would i destroy a soda can by overheating it slowly and steadily because the can has no easy way of dissipating heat and has electronics in it which are not heat resistent?

I think "destroy" gets misconstrued in people's mind as exploding as a default. Rendering useless would be another way of describing it.

Edit: what kind of laser would you be using to pull this off though? the amount of time the satellite would be visible and in range of your beam would be limited. they roughly have the same orbital period as the ISS which I've personally seen many times which is my point of reference. it's only visible for a very short time, so you'd need a very hot beam to work in that time frame. would it be effective as an additive heating. as in, would it cool off before the next time it came within range?

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#29

Post by JKCalhoun »

jmclnx wrote: post #20

To me, the main issue is not the signal itself, but the direction: >The use of those frequencies to "downlink" data runs counter to standards set by the International Telecommunication Union, a United Nations agency So, just another instance of the current admin violating an international treaty the US is part of.

> Starshield's unusual transmissions have the potential to interfere with other scientific and commercial satellites, warns Scott Tilley, an amateur satellite tracker in Canada who first spotted the signals.

Might that be the point? A space-based means of "hacking" satellites? Or is that kind of a dumb thing to do when you could do the same Earth-based?

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#30

Post by JKCalhoun »

Weeenion wrote: post #19
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try destroying a can of soda with a laser pointer first…

Does your laser pointer has a hard upper Watt limit? Consumer grade / privat buyable laser can easily be bought. And would i destroy a soda can by overheating it slowly and steadily because the can has no easy way of dissipating heat and has electronics in it which are not heat resistent?

Delivering that kind of power through all of the atmosphere between you and satellite is going to be a problem. And it's not sticking around overhead waiting for you to heat it up slowly.
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