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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#21

Post by skeeter2020 »

overscore wrote: post #8
OskarS wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. The law is the law, and there is no excuse for breaking it. Your manager is certainly culpable, but if you act against the law, you are culpable as well. The exception is if you fear literal physical violence against you or others, or are being blackmailed or…

> I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions. Most parents will risk whatever legal ramifications to care for their kids and that's inherent mora…

To get rich at your software startup is not one of the situations where you have a moral obligation to break the law. None of these people were stealing bread from the rich to feed their children.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#22

Post by n4r9 »

Another recent classic case of this is the revelations that Uber were targeting law enforcement based on user behaviour, and refusing to offer them rides in areas where they were breaking regulations. I mentioned this at some point last year, and someone replied saying that they'd enthusiastically volunteer to take part in that project (assuming no personal risk). People's ethics are not always what you'd expect (or hope).

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#23

Post by mgilroy »

I was asked to sign off on an R&D tax claim for my team's work. I reviewed it and said no. Was then sent to a meeting with the accountants who explained the claim was based on what the CEO had told them. We went through the details and the agreed with me on most things. I also discovered that we were entitled to claim for things I wouldn't have known about and the CEO discovered that just because the credits were for R&D the legal definition didn't allow for normal development work.

In this instance nothing intentionally illegal was being attempted. However, had the original claim been made it could have been considered fraud. In these sorts of situations I always ensure that the company put me in contact with the professionals that can indemnify both the company and me from any wrong doing. Provided we tell the truth.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#24

Post by andy99 »

It's easy to armchair quarterback these things, and in retrospect, the actions that innocent people should take are probably obvious. At the time I don't think it would be so easy.

There is lots of pressure not to take action, because of the feeling you're overreacting, because you've had things explained to you in a way that minimizes or removes the criminality, and because your job is at stake.

And crucially there is never some black and white issue. If your employer told you to murder someone, it would be easy to say no and know you did the right thing. If they tell you to incrementally go along with some grey area thing you're not sure the legal status of, it's way harder to know what to do.

People still have to be accountable for their actions of course, ignorance is no excuse. But we all should hope we're never in such a situation to begin with rather than thinking we'll know how and when to act.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#25

Post by mrheosuper »

sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

I wonder how would that work when you are working for companies like Lockheed Martin, knowing your code will be used in weapon that may kill innocent people.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#26

Post by nkrisc »

overscore wrote: post #8
OskarS wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. The law is the law, and there is no excuse for breaking it. Your manager is certainly culpable, but if you act against the law, you are culpable as well. The exception is if you fear literal physical violence against you or others, or are being blackmailed or…

> I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions. Most parents will risk whatever legal ramifications to care for their kids and that's inherent mora…

As a parent, I would risk destitution over going to prison every single time. I don’t even have to think about it.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#27

Post by amelius »

sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#28

Post by Timshel »

andy99 wrote: post #24

It's easy to armchair quarterback these things, and in retrospect, the actions that innocent people should take are probably obvious. At the time I don't think it would be so easy. There is lots of pressure not to take action, because of the feeling you're overreacting, because you've had things explained to you in a way that minimizes or removes the criminality, and because your job is at stake. And crucially there…

> And crucially there is never some black and white issue.

The three example given are quite black and white ...

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#29

Post by zero_k »

I wish I could tell a story. Alas, I can't. It turns out that large corporations are excellent at hiding evidence of wrongdoing, and will do everything to cover the backside of high-level execs, because stock price matters. When it's bad, the exec leaves for a "better opportunity", and none will be wiser. The stress of the honest, serious engineer(s) remain, and the exec gets a free ride to their next big beautiful step up the ladder. In retrospect, don't follow internal reporting guidelines, and don't talk to internal lawyers. They either are incompetent or competent, but paid to swipe stuff under the rug -- you'll never find out either way. Instead, go to the relevant regulatory agency, write a detailed report to them, and let it play out.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#30

Post by surgical_fire »

OskarS wrote: post #4
Rygian wrote: post #2

> If you take one lesson from this, it’s that you can always say no. I fully understand why this is true, but it seems to ignore any retaliative measures that the management could take against the person who says no. With the benefit of hindsight, any such retaliation would be weaker than ending up in an orange suit. But the person has to find the guts to say "no" without that hindsight.

I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. The law is the law, and there is no excuse for breaking it. Your manager is certainly culpable, but if you act against the law, you are culpable as well. The exception is if you fear literal physical violence against you or others, or are being blackmailed or…

"losing your job", for a lot of people, is extremely effective coercion.

We are not talking about luxury here. A lot of people depend on their salary to pay rent and put food on the table. This is even more pressing if you have a family that depends on you, if you are in need of healthcare, etc.

What your post fails to recognize is that in the current system, labor is already a form of coercion. You need to work because the option is homelessness and starvation.

If you can avoid those even when unemployed, you are extremely privileged.

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