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Our efforts, in part, define us

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Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#21

Post by anovikov »

oytis wrote: post #15
anovikov wrote: post #10

I sometimes identify as "ex-programmer" these days, just because whatever coding i could do is now irrelevant due to LLMs, but this isn't entirely honest. Programming was never my job. My job was "convincing people to transfer money to my account under various pretexts, most of which involved me writing some code", and as such, the thing is pretty much alive.

Have you got good results with LLMs for low-level development? For embedded I've found them mostly useless.

I have reworked a lot of code i built myself with AVX2 and Neon, to become much better, more maintainable and faster too, with LLMs.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#22

Post by slaterbug »

anovikov wrote: post #10

I sometimes identify as "ex-programmer" these days, just because whatever coding i could do is now irrelevant due to LLMs, but this isn't entirely honest. Programming was never my job. My job was "convincing people to transfer money to my account under various pretexts, most of which involved me writing some code", and as such, the thing is pretty much alive.

You don't program at all now? It's all generated?

I only ask because I find myself on the tools most of the time still. The difference in how different people experience this tech is astounding sometimes.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#23

Post by anovikov »

slaterbug wrote: post #22
anovikov wrote: post #10

I sometimes identify as "ex-programmer" these days, just because whatever coding i could do is now irrelevant due to LLMs, but this isn't entirely honest. Programming was never my job. My job was "convincing people to transfer money to my account under various pretexts, most of which involved me writing some code", and as such, the thing is pretty much alive.

You don't program at all now? It's all generated? I only ask because I find myself on the tools most of the time still. The difference in how different people experience this tech is astounding sometimes.

I debug a lot. LLM tools still can't figure how to use a debugger. That's about it. I'm sure they will soon.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#24

Post by spiffytech »

falcor84 wrote: post #18
repeekad wrote: post #11

Amish communities have rejected “modern” technology convenience in exchange for good hard work for centuries and never looked back

> never looked back Obviously there are very many Amish people who leave their communities to join the modern world - according to various sources this attrition seems to be between 15-25%. And even amongst those who stay, it's likely that a central reason is the fear of excommunication/shunning, rather than an inherent desire to reject modern technology.

Also many Amish people engage in rules lawyering to access forbidden technology without violating the letter of the rules. And even abiding with the spirit of the rules, they use more technology than outsiders realize.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#25

Post by sethjgore »

shubhamjain wrote: post #14

> For myself, in the last 10 years, my work of writing code has largely defined what I do with my working time. Now I experience large swaths of that work being created and done by AI (sometimes amazingly well, sometimes poorly), and I find myself thinking of the photographer above. Which is ironic, because smartphone photography is astonishingly average to someone who actually understands photography. Phones try to…

One up for a6000! Definitely taught me the same things you mentioned. A great entry level camera.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#26

Post by raddan »

falcor84 wrote: post #18
repeekad wrote: post #11

Amish communities have rejected “modern” technology convenience in exchange for good hard work for centuries and never looked back

> never looked back Obviously there are very many Amish people who leave their communities to join the modern world - according to various sources this attrition seems to be between 15-25%. And even amongst those who stay, it's likely that a central reason is the fear of excommunication/shunning, rather than an inherent desire to reject modern technology.

It’s worth mentioning that the Amish aside, there are many groups of people who understand that work has to be done, but do it in a way that elevates the idea that humans can seek transcendence through work. The Shaker communities in my part of the US come to mind. They were not anti-technology by any stretch of the imagination. But they did care about work’s role in being a part of a whole. There are still remnants of that mindset here. For example, I have lately been spending time with people who like to build houses using traditional techniques; while hand tools often play a role, it’s not because they hate technology. There are lots of power tools being used as well. Instead, it’s about asking “what is best?” and “how do I want to spend my working life?”

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#27

Post by cpursley »

anovikov wrote: post #23
slaterbug wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't program at all now? It's all generated? I only ask because I find myself on the tools most of the time still. The difference in how different people experience this tech is astounding sometimes.

I debug a lot. LLM tools still can't figure how to use a debugger. That's about it. I'm sure they will soon.

Claude Code with Tidewave mcp as well as Playwright mcp get pretty close to the debug cycle.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#28

Post by andrewstuart »

makerofthings wrote: post #19
andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I became a computer programmer because I want the computer to do things. I’m not a programmer because I wanted to program. Thus AI is incredibly exciting to me because it makes it easier to make computers do things.

I became a programmer because I like to write code. Having an llm write code for me is like building a robot that eats cake.

I can understand then why you might not enjoy using AI to make a computer do your bidding.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#29

Post by bonoboTP »

tolerance wrote: post #2

Was the pleasure of writing code that the author describes tied to the actual practice or its profits? My impression is that many white collar workers felt that their jobs and accompanying status were immutable. They’re not. Couldn’t they have seen this coming? Nothing prevents people from continuing on with their trades or interests how they did before the AI bubble bloomed. But if they want to earn a living doing i…

I'm not sure we are built for this on a societal scale. I understand the reasoning rationally. Sure, nobody pitied the horseshoe-maker blacksmith who was proud of his craft when the car was invented. Or the tailors when clothing became cheaply mass-produced. Or even the miners after many mines closed. Yeah I get it. "You learned a craft and it's no longer needed. Sucks to suck. Try to be useful in some other way or get bent."

Having to reinvent your career when you are 30+/40+/50+ is not so simple. You studied something, amassed experience and tacit knowledge, taste and work habits.

It used to be the case that you learned as an apprentice (or simply grew up on a farm and saw the work) and then continued it the rest of your life.

We will be more and more efficient at pumping more wealth to the owner classes, but people will be spiritually ground down.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#30

Post by latexr »

andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I became a computer programmer because I want the computer to do things. I’m not a programmer because I wanted to program. Thus AI is incredibly exciting to me because it makes it easier to make computers do things.

I became a computer programmer because I was frustrated “the computer” (i.e. other people’s programs) didn’t do things exactly as I wanted them. That could mean current solutions didn’t do it efficiently, or correctly, or maybe it was just different from what I wanted. In other words, I did it for the same reason as you: to get the computer to do things.

But I, on the other hand, do not find LLMs “incredibly exciting”. Maybe I’m the odd one here, but one of my requisites for getting the computer to do things is for it to do them correctly and efficiently. It needs to do the thing I want, and do it right. But it should also not waste my time and other worldly finite resources doing it. LLMs fail at both, and as such (for me) they don’t make it easier to make the computer do things, they make it more frustrating.

Worse is that now I have to deal with the increasing torrent of shit code that’s being put out by people with zero care or understanding for what they do. Meaning that now I’m being bitten even more frequently, and it’s just a matter of time before I’m affected by an unnecessary, incompetent, and wholly avoidable error. Not to mention the increased spread of misinformation, lies, surveillance, spam, and phishing, all while wasting earthly resources we do not have the luxury of spending right now.

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