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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

metalhearf.fr

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#21
post #9
post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

I'm convinced the people suggesting this type of thing are influenced or even compromised by their constituent's enemies and NOT the result of poor education on the topic. This policy for example would be most helpful to enemies to the EU. It would lower the cost of acquiring the data for China and Russia as it allows them to mass acquire data in transmission without incurring the cost of local operations. The easies…

> It would lower the cost of acquiring the data for China and Russia

Yes, it would lower such barriers for countries that are commonly seen today as Europe's adversaries. But in this case, the U.S. (or rather, U.S. organisations and corporations) might be the primary bad actor pushing for ChatControl. See e.g.:

Thorn (organization) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(organization)

"Thorn works with a group of technology partners who serve the organization as members of the Technology Task Force. The goal of the program includes developing technological barriers and initiatives to ensure the safety of children online and deter sexual predators on the Internet. Various corporate members of the task force include Facebook, Google, Irdeto, Microsoft, Mozilla, Palantir, Salesforce Foundation, Symantec, and Twitter.[7] ... Netzpolitik.org and the investigative platform Follow the Money criticize that "Thorn has blurred the line between advocacy for children’s rights and its own interest as a vendor of scanning software."[11][12] The possible conflict of interest has also been picked up by Balkan Insight,[13] Le Monde,[14] and El Diario.[15] A documentary by the German public-service television broadcaster ZDF criticizes Thorn’s influence on the legislative process of the European Union for a law from which Thorn would profit financially.[16][17] A move of a former member of Europol to Thorn has been found to be maladministration by the European Ombudsman Emily O'Reilly.[18][19]"

Additionally, it would not surprise me at all if Palantir is lobbying for this either. Many EU countries, like Germany and Denmark, have already integrated Palantir's software into the intelligence, defence, and policing arms of their governments.

But at the end of the day, while it is convenient to blame external actors like U.S. corporations, ultimately the blame lies solely on the shoulders of European politicians. People in positions of power will tend to seek more, and I'm sure European politicians are more than happy to wield these tools for their own gain regardless of whether Palantir or Thorn is lobbying them.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#22
post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

I've commented this elsewhere, but rights in the US are generally much more absolute than here in Europe.

For example, in the EU you technically have the right to freedom of expression, but you can also be arrested if you say something that could offend someone.

Similarly rights to privacy are often ignored whenever a justification can be made that it's appropriate to do so.

I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but here in the UK you don't even have a right to remain silent because the government added a loophole so that if you're arrested in a UK airport they can arbitrarily force you to answer their questions and provide passwords for any private devices. For this reason you often here reports of people being randomly arrested in UK airports, and the government does this deliberately so they can violate your rights.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#23
post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

Plenty of EU states already have a constitution in which this proposal would be de facto unconstitutional.

The issue is what is the European Commission willing to do in order to guarantee that fat contract check goes to Palantir or Thorn or whoever has the best quid pro quo of the day.

This is not Stasi this is Tech billionaires playing kings and buying the EC and Europol for pennies on the dollar and with it the privacy of virtually every citizen of zero interest for law enforcement or agencies.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#24
Can anyone try to explain to be how this is not a strain of mind-reading and thought crime? I mean, sure, we’re several decades away from the big event where society will adjudicate thought-crime, but this appears to be one of the first skirmishes.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#25
post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

As shown on the other side of Atlantic that is worthless when no one upholds the constitution.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#26
post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise.

Constitutions don't enforce themselves. The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms but multiple jurisdictions ignore it and multiple supreme court rulings and make firearm ownership functionally impossible anyway. Free speech regulations have, thankfully, been more robust.

The only thing that stops bad things happening is a critical mass of people who believe in the values the constitution memorializes and who have enough veto power to stop attempts to erode these values.

The US has such a critical mass, the gun debate notwithstanding. Does the EU have enough people who still believe in freedom?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#27
This is (mostly) about Tech companies' money, namely:

- Palantir Technologies

- 'not-for-profit' Thorn

> The Commission’s failure to identify the list of experts as falling within the scope of the complainant’s public access request constitutes maladministration. [0]

> ... the complainant contended that the precision rate of technologies like those developed by the organisation are often overestimated. It is therefore essential that any technical claims made by the organisation concerned are made public as this would facilitate the critical assessment of the proposal. [1]

> The Commission presented a proposal on preventing and combating child sexual abuse, looking in particular at detecting child pornography. In this context, it has mentioned that support could be provided by the software of the controversial American company Palantir... [2]

> Is Palantir’s failure to register on the Transparency Register compatible with the Commission’s transparency commitments? [2]

(Palantir only entered the Transparency Registry in March 2025 despite being a multi million vendor for Europol and European Agencies for more than a decade)

> No detailed records exist concerning a January meeting between European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and the CEO of controversial US data analytics firm Palantir [3]

> Kutcher and CEO Julie Cordua held several meetings with EU officials from 2020 to 2023 - before the former stepped down from his role - including European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, Home Affairs Commissioner Ylva Johansson, and European Parliament President Roberta Metsola.[4]

> The Ombudsman further concluded that Thorn had indeed influenced the legislative process of the CSAM regulation. “It is clear, for example, from the Commission’s impact assessment that the input provided by Thorn significantly informed the Commission’s decision-making. The public interest in disclosure is thus self-evident. [4]

> EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly has announced that she has opened an investigation into the transfer of two former Europol officials to the chat control surveillance tech provider Thorn. [5]

[0] https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/176658

[1] https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/recommendation/en/179395

[2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2024-00016...

[3] https://www.euractiv.com/news/commission-kept-no-records-on-...

[4] https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/07/18/european-ombudsman-...

[5] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-eu-ombudsman-l...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#28
post #11

I was just thinking that if something like this ever does get through and become law, then creating open-source alternatives which do not obey these laws would be quite trivial. What would not be trivial would be deciding where to host the servers and source code, and how to actually get this software onto people's devices. What country would be safe for hosting code that does this that people would also trust in gen…

EU CRA disallows shipment of non-accredited binaries in "critical" software categories.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#30
post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

Agreed. In this case, there needs to be some sort of 'privacy bill of rights'. Something fundamental where any law like this cannot be passed.

Laws don't stop men with guns. Men with guns stop men with guns. Laws not enforced and rights not protected don't matter.

As the old saying goes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

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