A guy I once worked with aptly referred to the "dog-fooding" as "feel the pain" approach.
The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
21–30 of 38 posts
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#22This guy is my personal hero, but -- alas -- this is also a story about worse is better : http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/saws... "Having heard all of the various reasons put forth by the manufacturers for not doing anything, I firmly believe it simply comes down to money," says Gass. "They cannot figure out how to make more money by adding SawStop. They are not paying for the injuries that oc…
According to SawStop PR, SawStop has prevented about 150 injuries. It appears that Stephen Gass is attempting to extort revenues. > Here in the States the argument over licensing the SawStop technology has been hot, heavy, and plenty of it. Mr. Gass wants 8% for a license, which will add about $80USD to the cost of the typical table saw, plus the cost of the mechanism and the labour to install it. Delta, et al. balke…
> Woodworkers are pretty smart and safety conscious
And so are the car drivers, which doesn't prevent a vast majority of accidents from happening because of a human error.
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or it might be a story about the expected value of an injury which would be sustained without the technology vs. its cost. If you haven't considered what various potential injuries are worth and their probabilities and what this technology costs then you are just playing the "if it saves just one child its worth it" game.
The "if it saves just one child" problem is more of a problem when you try to force your solution and the associated costs onto other people. In a free market, where it's my own finger on the line. Well, I'd be very likely to buy a saw with this technology. In my garage sits my grandfather's table saw. He was a pro woodworker. It's big, heavy, and runs on three-phase power. It runs like a champ, but scares the crap o…
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Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
It appears that Stephen Gass is attempting to extort revenues. Don't you think you should... rephrase that? I believe the term is "negotiate a price", not "extort revenues". I'm no fan of software patents or obvious patents, but if ever an invention deserved a patent, this is it. I'm not suggesting that this is a story of greedy companies, or of greedy inventors. I believe the companies when they say that most people…
The price difference isn't $80. My Grizzly cabinet saw retails for around $1100 today. The equivalent Sawstop saw retails for over $3000. When he couldn't convince other manufactures to include his technology, he built a high-end saw to market himself. That still puts the extra safety out of range for us lower-end consumers. And the danger with table saws isn't carelessly putting your finger into the blade. The dange…
That still puts the extra safety out of range for us lower-end consumers.
Yeah, alas, the $80 is the imaginary price difference that might exist in a world where every saw buyer thought as I do, leading every manufacturer to leap at the chance to license SawStop.
If the premium really were only $80 I might spring for the bandsaw version too, though I've used bandsaws many times and understand what you're saying about the relative danger. I just like being paranoid, when I can afford it. Just because a mistake requires you to be incredibly boneheaded or absent-minded doesn't mean it won't happen.
I can't necessarily blame the SawStop guy for building high-end saws that I'm reluctant to afford. I'm no expert on saw economics, but I find it easy to believe that there's no way to build a viable startup by trying to compete against the likes of Grizzly on price.
I will say, though, that every time I contemplate taking up woodworking without a SawStop saw I run into sentences like this:
I once put all four fingers of my left hand into a dado blade on my table saw due to kickback.
And then I start thinking about all the other hobbies I could be pursuing. Piano! Knitting! Electronics! Machining! (Which, if you do it right, doesn't involve a lot of kickback either. Wear those steel-toed boots, though.)
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
The price difference isn't $80. My Grizzly cabinet saw retails for around $1100 today. The equivalent Sawstop saw retails for over $3000. When he couldn't convince other manufactures to include his technology, he built a high-end saw to market himself. That still puts the extra safety out of range for us lower-end consumers. And the danger with table saws isn't carelessly putting your finger into the blade. The dange…
That still puts the extra safety out of range for us lower-end consumers. Yeah, alas, the $80 is the imaginary price difference that might exist in a world where every saw buyer thought as I do, leading every manufacturer to leap at the chance to license SawStop. If the premium really were only $80 I might spring for the bandsaw version too, though I've used bandsaws many times and understand what you're saying about…
> And then I start thinking about all the other hobbies I could be pursuing.
The feeling you get from taking pieces of raw lumber, shaping them, planing them, joining them (and yes shimming them), eventually turning the wood into something with form and function, through problem solving and love.
The feeling you get from seeing someone like and enjoy a piece of furniture you built as a gift.
Come to think of it, I think hobbies are about pursuing personal feelings. Not about the actual doing.
Even though, I've temporarily put woodworking on the back burner, I'm glad to see fellow woodworkers (coming-out-of cliche deleted). I still gawk at Woodcraft products. I still inspect the craftsmanship/joints of strangers' furniture (http://www.woodcraft.com/)
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
It appears that Stephen Gass is attempting to extort revenues. Don't you think you should... rephrase that? I believe the term is "negotiate a price", not "extort revenues". I'm no fan of software patents or obvious patents, but if ever an invention deserved a patent, this is it. I'm not suggesting that this is a story of greedy companies, or of greedy inventors. I believe the companies when they say that most people…
Perhaps 8% is a reasonable number to not lose your digits. Unfortunately, the customer isn't going to be able to decide (unless they buy SawStop's own) until Delta et al. license. and/or significant public pressure is brought (e.g. someone famous losing their fingers woodworking) Another reason why companies like Delta et al. are resistant to the innovation is the imminent threat of tens of millions of damages in ret…
I don't know anything about retroactive lawsuits.
But if people can sue these companies after they license the technology, why can't they sue them for not licensing and providing safety? It would sounds so ironic.
Am I missing something here or the laws are really in such a way ...
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
That still puts the extra safety out of range for us lower-end consumers. Yeah, alas, the $80 is the imaginary price difference that might exist in a world where every saw buyer thought as I do, leading every manufacturer to leap at the chance to license SawStop. If the premium really were only $80 I might spring for the bandsaw version too, though I've used bandsaws many times and understand what you're saying about…
> And then I start thinking about all the other hobbies I could be pursuing. The feeling you get from taking pieces of raw lumber, shaping them, planing them, joining them (and yes shimming them), eventually turning the wood into something with form and function, through problem solving and love. The feeling you get from seeing someone like and enjoy a piece of furniture you built as a gift. Come to think of it, I th…
Oh, I may not resist the siren song of Norm Abram forever. We're just haggling over the price here. ;)
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
According to SawStop PR, SawStop has prevented about 150 injuries. It appears that Stephen Gass is attempting to extort revenues. > Here in the States the argument over licensing the SawStop technology has been hot, heavy, and plenty of it. Mr. Gass wants 8% for a license, which will add about $80USD to the cost of the typical table saw, plus the cost of the mechanism and the labour to install it. Delta, et al. balke…
> Woodworkers are pretty smart and safety conscious And so are the car drivers, which doesn't prevent a vast majority of accidents from happening because of a human error.
human error is part of it, but also the not safety conscious part. how many drivers actually think about how they're hurtling across the ground in a metal or plastic box sometimes faster than the fastest land animal can sprint? most people who drive are not thinking about safety, they're just "driving" which often means a background task while they talk or think, etc.
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Woodworkers are pretty smart and safety conscious And so are the car drivers, which doesn't prevent a vast majority of accidents from happening because of a human error.
human error is part of it, but also the not safety conscious part. how many drivers actually think about how they're hurtling across the ground in a metal or plastic box sometimes faster than the fastest land animal can sprint? most people who drive are not thinking about safety, they're just "driving" which often means a background task while they talk or think, etc.
Sure, of course. My point was that any inherently dangerous activity whether it's sawing, driving or even something as mundane as cooking will dull the perception of danger with time. Woodworkers are not the exception.
Re: The Ultimate Dogfooding Story
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
It appears that Stephen Gass is attempting to extort revenues. Don't you think you should... rephrase that? I believe the term is "negotiate a price", not "extort revenues". I'm no fan of software patents or obvious patents, but if ever an invention deserved a patent, this is it. I'm not suggesting that this is a story of greedy companies, or of greedy inventors. I believe the companies when they say that most people…
Perhaps 8% is a reasonable number to not lose your digits. Unfortunately, the customer isn't going to be able to decide (unless they buy SawStop's own) until Delta et al. license. and/or significant public pressure is brought (e.g. someone famous losing their fingers woodworking) Another reason why companies like Delta et al. are resistant to the innovation is the imminent threat of tens of millions of damages in ret…
8% is an off-the-wall royalty. I mean, if you write a book, an entire book, you're only going to get a 15% royalty. 8% is too high by at least an order of magnitude.