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The Claude Code Framework Wars

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Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#21

Post by sublinear »

raincole wrote: post #19
sublinear wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's accurate. Don't most people working in medicine usually have biology and chemistry degrees? Are you saying those sciences are dark arts?

Having biology degrees doesn't make you understand every detail of human body. There are many, many drugs that are known to work (by double blind testing) but we don't know exactly how. The details of how penicillin kills bacteria were discovered in 2000s. Only about half a century of after its commercial production. And I'm quite sure we'll still see some more missing puzzle pieces in the future.

Yes, but I think we want to know how they work? Not knowing "exactly how" but having a good ballpark idea is not equivalent to letting AI throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#22

Post by raincole »

troupo wrote: post #17
raincole wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Living creatures are mostly black boxes. It doesn't mean we don't aim for making medicine with predictable effects (and side effects).

Medicine that can either kill you, cure you, or have no effect at any given time for the same disease is quite unlikely to even pass certification. Do you know why?

That is exactly my point.

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#23

Post by musbemus »

One thing I hope to see included is a precursor step when constructing specs where Claude is used to intelligently inquire about gaps to fill that would disambiguate the implementation. If you told an engineer to do something with a set of requirements and outcomes, they'd naturally also have follow-up questions to ensure alignment before executing.

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#24

Post by matt3D »

CGamesPlay wrote: post #6
matt3D wrote: post #2

Pretty surprised BMAD-method wasn't mentioned. For my money it's by far the best Claude Code compliment.

What is this? Just a system prompt? What makes it so good for you? https://github.com/bmad-code-org/BMAD-METHOD

It manifests as a sort of extension for Claude Code.

When I'm in the terminal I can call on Agents who can create standardised documents so there is a memory of the product management side of things that extends beyond the context window of Claude.

It guides you through the specification process so that you have extremely tight tasks for Claude to churn through, with any context, documentation and acceptance criteria.

Perhaps there are others similar, but I have found it completely transformative.

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#25

Post by baq »

sublinear wrote: post #15
dist-epoch wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-deterministic does not mean not-predictable. Quantum mechanics is non-deterministic, yet you can predict the motion of objects with exquisite precision. All these "non-deterministic boxes" will give the same answer to the question "What is the capital of France"

Yes, but the "exquisite precision" comes from the deterministic parts of physics.

Nah. The only thing we can establish precisely at the lowest levels is probability. We can and do engineer systems to maximize probabilities of desired outcomes and minimize probabilities of undesirable ones.

Frankly I don’t understand how software engineers (not coders mind you) can have issues with non deterministic tools while browsing the web on a network which can stop working anytime for any reason.

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#26

Post by dsiegel2275 »

CompoundEyes wrote: post #20

For anyone that’s applied one of these at what level of autonomy are you using it? And in what setting? Greenfield? I see one mention brownfield development. Has anyone with experience using these frameworks fired up Claude Code on enterprise software and had confident results? I have unchecked access to Claude Code at work and based on personal agentic coding I’m sure they do aid it. I have decent but not consistent…

I'm only three weeks into using Claude Code but I'm now seeing impressive results using a structured, "role" or "persona" based approach in a large (500K+ SLOC) Elixir / Phoenix codebase. I'm using the $200 Max plan - so my inference costs are fixed.

For certain, the results are better when I use it to build new features into our platform - as opposed to making complicated refactors or other deep changes to existing parts of the system. But even in the latter case, if we have good technical documentation capturing the design and how parts of the system work (which we don't in many places), Claude Code can make good progress.

At first I was seeing a fair amount of what I would consider "bad code" - implementation and code that either didn't follow accepted coding style and patterns or that simply wasn't structured for reusability, maintainability. But after strengthening the CLAUDE.md file and adding an "elixir-code-reviewer" subagent which the "developer" persona had to use - the quality of code improved significantly.

Our platform is open source, you can see our current Claude commands and subagents here: https://github.com/Simon-Initiative/oli-torus/tree/master/.c...

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#27

Post by stuartjohnson12 »

AbuAssar wrote: post #14

did anyone try any of these so called frameworks? do they deliver or just riding the hype-wagon?

Having occasionally looked into these, the overwhelming issue is that pretty much all of them are built with themselves and the output is what you'd expect - vast quantities of untested functionality, no documentation beyond a wall of Claude-isms about how next generation and feature rich it is, and no thought to applicability beyond the narrow set of projects that interest the author.

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#29

Post by iandanforth »

dsiegel2275 wrote: post #26
CompoundEyes wrote: post #20

For anyone that’s applied one of these at what level of autonomy are you using it? And in what setting? Greenfield? I see one mention brownfield development. Has anyone with experience using these frameworks fired up Claude Code on enterprise software and had confident results? I have unchecked access to Claude Code at work and based on personal agentic coding I’m sure they do aid it. I have decent but not consistent…

I'm only three weeks into using Claude Code but I'm now seeing impressive results using a structured, "role" or "persona" based approach in a large (500K+ SLOC) Elixir / Phoenix codebase. I'm using the $200 Max plan - so my inference costs are fixed. For certain, the results are better when I use it to build new features into our platform - as opposed to making complicated refactors or other deep changes to existing…

Thanks for sharing that extensive documentation!

Re: The Claude Code Framework Wars

#30

Post by stingraycharles »

stocksinsmocks wrote: post #28

I got a strong sense of LLM style in the blog. Interesting information, but that I’m learning about AI from AI is amusing.

Yeah, unfortunately this is very often the case with articles about AI.

In my own experience, this type of stuff is just wishful thinking right now: for anything non-trivial, you still need to monitor Claude Code closely and interrupt when you discover it goes on the wrong train of thought.

Additionally, for security reasons, you don’t want it to give it too many permissions, and/or actually see which commands it’s executing.

The “frameworks” OP talks about are still far away. Right now the best way to think about it is an intern which is usually wrong but can cramp out code at lightning speed.

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