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Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

gpiaaf.gov.pt

21–30 of 39 posts

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#21

Summary: the wrecked cabin had started its descent from the top station, only got a few seconds down before the steel cable pulled out of its socket; the cabin went into freefall down the tracks; the staff activated all the brakes available, but they were clearly not designed for this situation and could not provide enough stopping force before it derailed and hit a wall and a lamp-post at approx 60km/h.

Wow, only 60km/h.

If it was a modern bus hitting a building at that speed, most occupants would be able to walk out. Really puts into perspective how much safety improved in the past 100 years.

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#22
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although it isn't yet clear how much the brakes did actually brake, it is known they would never be enough. So the cable was a critical component and initial findings suggest it wasn't being verified as rigourously, thoroughly and often as it perhaps should have.

> it is known they would never be enough. No that's not what it says. Brakes were not enough "in the current configuration" in other words they were not applied fully. The investigation will focus on why brakes were not applying full breaking force. In railway jargon "brake configuration" refers to "how much are you braking" but you seem to have interpreted "braking configuration" as "the number and type of brakes th…

> In railway jargon "brake configuration" refers to "how much are you braking"

I've never heard that terminology in a European rail context, you'll need to provide a citation.

In EU regs, "braking configuration" literally means the mechanical configuration of braking; how much braking force the inertial, hydraulic or pneumatic braking circuits can apply in total.

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#23
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although it isn't yet clear how much the brakes did actually brake, it is known they would never be enough. So the cable was a critical component and initial findings suggest it wasn't being verified as rigourously, thoroughly and often as it perhaps should have.

> it is known they would never be enough. No that's not what it says. Brakes were not enough "in the current configuration" in other words they were not applied fully. The investigation will focus on why brakes were not applying full breaking force. In railway jargon "brake configuration" refers to "how much are you braking" but you seem to have interpreted "braking configuration" as "the number and type of brakes th…

> In railway jargon "brake configuration" refers to "how much are you braking"

I presume the quote in English is translated from the original Portuguese. I would hope it was carefully translated but I wouldn't personally bet on that.

A Portuguese source document might be clearer.

[edit]

Document in Portuguese: https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/upload/processos/d054238.pdf

  No entanto, e independentemente disso, as evidências indicam que o freio pneumático e também o freio manual foram rapidamente aplicados pelo guarda-freio da cabina n.® 1, mas que na configuração existente os freios não têm a capacidade suficiente para imobilizar as cabinas em movimento sem estas terem as suas massas em vazio mutuamente equilibradas através do cabo de ligação. Desta forma, não constitui um sistema redundante à falha dessa ligação.

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watched it front to back in Portuguese a while ago. It is one of the few series available in European Portuguese, most are Brazilian. I'd say it was time well spent, it is an entertaining and capturing thriller and you learn a bit about a certain era of Portuguese history. What annoyed me a bit was that it had many small period inconsistencies. Little things like modern buildings, modern cars visible in the backgroun…

When watching it, the thing that would consistently real the period piece illusion for me were the modern cranes that you could often see in the Lisbon scenes.

Tough to avoid for a budget limited run tv series. Fixing that would be expensive detail special fx for no value (maybe easy to clean up now with ai for a few hundred dollars)

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#25
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the brakes would have never worked if connecting cables broke? And this specific failure has just never happened before? Jesus.

No that's not what it's saying. I've read the whole report. The hydraulic brakes are designed to be applied automatically and stop the car in case of cable failure. By mentioning "current configuration" the report is implying that the brakes were not applied fully, and the reason for this is still being investigated

I disagree. The last sentence kinda strongly implies that there was no redundancy:

"the existing brakes does not constitute a redundant system"

Or from the Portuguese report:

  Desta forma, não constitui um sistema redundante à falha dessa ligação
Google translate:

  Therefore, it does not constitute a redundant system in the event of this connection failing.
Of course it could just be saying that the brakes were critical (not redundant?). Summary reports often have spin rather than facts.

It turns out that the brakes were critical and they didn't work for whatever reason (design or maintenance or operation or unforseen failure)

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#26
post #7

Totally unrelated but there’s a Portuguese language Cold War miniseries on Netflix called Gloria that is excellent (set in Gloria city). I just happened to start to watch that this week

Watched it front to back in Portuguese a while ago. It is one of the few series available in European Portuguese, most are Brazilian. I'd say it was time well spent, it is an entertaining and capturing thriller and you learn a bit about a certain era of Portuguese history. What annoyed me a bit was that it had many small period inconsistencies. Little things like modern buildings, modern cars visible in the backgroun…

Another great one, based on the same direction approach as Casa de Papel, is Rabo de Peixe.

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#27
Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on.

Likewise having all offers turned down for service, in some other cultures, they would rather shut down the funicular than keep it running without such contracts in place.

Now several people are dead.

As usual, "casa roubada, trancas às portas"

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#28
post #21

Summary: the wrecked cabin had started its descent from the top station, only got a few seconds down before the steel cable pulled out of its socket; the cabin went into freefall down the tracks; the staff activated all the brakes available, but they were clearly not designed for this situation and could not provide enough stopping force before it derailed and hit a wall and a lamp-post at approx 60km/h.

Wow, only 60km/h. If it was a modern bus hitting a building at that speed, most occupants would be able to walk out. Really puts into perspective how much safety improved in the past 100 years.

Passenger cars from 40 years ago would struggle to protect you at those speeds.

Re: Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

#30
post #27

Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on. Likewise having all offers turned down for service, in some other cultures, they would rather shut down the funicular than keep it running without such contracts in place. Now several people are dead. As usual, "casa roubada, trancas às portas"

> Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on.

Coming from the same country as you, I totally understand. However, in this particular case the maintenance seems to have been done as it was supposed to be.

The problem seems to be that the cable broke at the anchoring point underneath the cabin, already underground. This is hidden from view during a normal daily inspection, where someone goes underground and checks the whole cable during a round trip of the cabin. They check the free cable going through pulleys and a flywheel, but they can't see inside the attachment point where the cable meets the cabin. This is only done in more thorough inspections, which do not happen daily.

Now, why it broke exactly at that point is probably related to how it was installed and not so much poor quality of the cable itself. Although some manufacturing issue could also be related.

We will have to wait and see, but like you said, several innocent people are dead. Hopefully in this case it wasn't down to our culture of "it's good enough, let's move on", which indeed, unfortunately, is part of our history. The least we can do now is find the real causes and make it safer in the future.

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