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NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

reuters.com

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Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#21

Post by jandrewrogers »

neilv wrote: post #17

> The civilians appeared to be diving for shellfish when they inadvertently came across the detachment of SEALs as they splashed ashore at night, the Times reported. The American forces opened fire, killing all those aboard the small fishing vessel, the report said, without specifying the number of casualties. [...] A classified Pentagon review later concluded the killings were justified under the rules of engagement…

There are different clandestine and covert legal authorities under which these kinds of operations can be conducted with different rules of engagement. While most don't, some of these authorities may allow for killing of innocents in furtherance of the mission. The article implies that the rules of engagement for this particular mission allowed for the elimination of witnesses.

Governments around the world have strong incentives to keep this kind of thing out of the news even when they are on the receiving end, so it is relatively rare for it to leak into the public sphere no matter which government ends up killing innocents.

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#22

Post by chmod775 »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #20
chmod775 wrote: post #16

Makes those forces seem a lot less "special" if their highly trained SEALs on their super secret mission can get startled by a bunch of fishers probably going about their daily routine. Truly outstanding planning, reconnaissance, and decision-making in the field. If I ever need some guys in swimwear taken out, I know who to call. North Korean media likes to depict US soldiers as what can only be summarized as cruel d…

Those weren't Marines

My bad. I corrected the mistake. Next lunch order from Crayola is on me.

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#23

Post by neilv »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #21
neilv wrote: post #17

> The civilians appeared to be diving for shellfish when they inadvertently came across the detachment of SEALs as they splashed ashore at night, the Times reported. The American forces opened fire, killing all those aboard the small fishing vessel, the report said, without specifying the number of casualties. [...] A classified Pentagon review later concluded the killings were justified under the rules of engagement…

There are different clandestine and covert legal authorities under which these kinds of operations can be conducted with different rules of engagement. While most don't, some of these authorities may allow for killing of innocents in furtherance of the mission. The article implies that the rules of engagement for this particular mission allowed for the elimination of witnesses. Governments around the world have stron…

Thanks for the explanation.

Isn't this a pretty dangerous power and precedent to have, if you're the good guys?

Especially if you don't have a lot of confidence that the top of the command chain will always be of the utmost integrity and decency?

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#24

Post by jandrewrogers »

neilv wrote: post #23
jandrewrogers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different clandestine and covert legal authorities under which these kinds of operations can be conducted with different rules of engagement. While most don't, some of these authorities may allow for killing of innocents in furtherance of the mission. The article implies that the rules of engagement for this particular mission allowed for the elimination of witnesses. Governments around the world have stron…

Thanks for the explanation. Isn't this a pretty dangerous power and precedent to have, if you're the good guys? Especially if you don't have a lot of confidence that the top of the command chain will always be of the utmost integrity and decency?

At least in the US, there is a systematic separation of concerns and quite a few authorization interlocks. These are intentionally designed to make it nearly impossible for a rogue unit to operate with legal cover. Everybody who is a part of that legal process takes their bit very seriously and it isn’t just a bunch of political appointees.

Some types of operations require explicit and direct sign-off by the President, which provides legal sanction for people doing the work. Even in these cases, the operational details are left to the career professionals.

That isn’t to say that organizations can’t leave the reservation (see: FBI under Hoover) but that over time they’ve built up a lot of internal structure to limit it with varying degrees of effectiveness. It is useful to note that almost all of this was invented out of whole cloth after WW2, so the US has had to learn a lot of lessons the hard way.

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#25

Post by neilv »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #24
neilv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the explanation. Isn't this a pretty dangerous power and precedent to have, if you're the good guys? Especially if you don't have a lot of confidence that the top of the command chain will always be of the utmost integrity and decency?

At least in the US, there is a systematic separation of concerns and quite a few authorization interlocks. These are intentionally designed to make it nearly impossible for a rogue unit to operate with legal cover. Everybody who is a part of that legal process takes their bit very seriously and it isn’t just a bunch of political appointees. Some types of operations require explicit and direct sign-off by the Presiden…

That systems of interlocks sounds somewhat reassuring.

Though, what we can see recently of some checks on other extraordinary powers don't seem to be working well.

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#26

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #21
neilv wrote: post #17

> The civilians appeared to be diving for shellfish when they inadvertently came across the detachment of SEALs as they splashed ashore at night, the Times reported. The American forces opened fire, killing all those aboard the small fishing vessel, the report said, without specifying the number of casualties. [...] A classified Pentagon review later concluded the killings were justified under the rules of engagement…

There are different clandestine and covert legal authorities under which these kinds of operations can be conducted with different rules of engagement. While most don't, some of these authorities may allow for killing of innocents in furtherance of the mission. The article implies that the rules of engagement for this particular mission allowed for the elimination of witnesses. Governments around the world have stron…

"Elimination of witnesses" makes sense for a cable-tapping mission. You can't let the country know that you tapped their cable. It would ruin the whole point.

On the other hand, if you leave a bunch of dead bodies with bullets in them, a reasonably-competent government is going to figure out that something happened there, and if the cable is near there, it's a reasonably likely candidate...

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#28

Post by jandrewrogers »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26
jandrewrogers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different clandestine and covert legal authorities under which these kinds of operations can be conducted with different rules of engagement. While most don't, some of these authorities may allow for killing of innocents in furtherance of the mission. The article implies that the rules of engagement for this particular mission allowed for the elimination of witnesses. Governments around the world have stron…

"Elimination of witnesses" makes sense for a cable-tapping mission. You can't let the country know that you tapped their cable. It would ruin the whole point. On the other hand, if you leave a bunch of dead bodies with bullets in them, a reasonably-competent government is going to figure out that something happened there, and if the cable is near there, it's a reasonably likely candidate...

They don’t necessarily know what the mission was, just that the mission left dead bodies. Furthermore, they don’t know which country did it. There are probably a dozen countries that would do a mission like this against them with various objectives.

You also have to consider the possibility that the mission was intentionally designed as a distraction, such that the purpose was to leave evidence of a mission.

Re: NYT says US special forces killed North Korean civilians in botched 2019 mission

#30

Post by padjo »

neilv wrote: post #23
jandrewrogers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different clandestine and covert legal authorities under which these kinds of operations can be conducted with different rules of engagement. While most don't, some of these authorities may allow for killing of innocents in furtherance of the mission. The article implies that the rules of engagement for this particular mission allowed for the elimination of witnesses. Governments around the world have stron…

Thanks for the explanation. Isn't this a pretty dangerous power and precedent to have, if you're the good guys? Especially if you don't have a lot of confidence that the top of the command chain will always be of the utmost integrity and decency?

Everyone thinks they are the good guys.
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