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The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

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21–30 of 307 posts

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#21
post #3

The most deadly bug in history. If you know any other deadly bug, please share! I love these stories!

Several people killed themselves over this: https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/09/how-the-post...

One member of the development team, David McDonnell, who had worked on the Epos system side of the project, told the inquiry that “of eight [people] in the development team, two were very good, another two were mediocre but we could work with them, and then there were probably three or four who just weren’t up to it and weren’t capable of producing professional code”.

What sort of bugs resulted?

As early as 2001, McDonnell’s team had found “hundreds” of bugs. A full list has never been produced, but successive vindications of post office operators have revealed the sort of problems that arose. One, named the “Dalmellington Bug”, after the village in Scotland where a post office operator first fell prey to it, would see the screen freeze as the user was attempting to confirm receipt of cash. Each time the user pressed “enter” on the frozen screen, it would silently update the record. In Dalmellington, that bug created a £24,000 discrepancy, which the Post Office tried to hold the post office operator responsible for.

Another bug, called the Callendar Square bug – again named after the first branch found to have been affected by it – created duplicate transactions due to an error in the database underpinning the system: despite being clear duplicates, the post office operator was again held responsible for the errors.

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#22

This reminds me of the Belgium 2003 election that was impossibly skewered by a supernova light years away sending charged particles which manage to get through our atmosphere (allegedly) and flipping a bit. Not the only case it's happened.

On the bright side, wow, those computers are really sturdy: takes a whole supernova to just flip a bit :)

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#23
post #9

I strongly believe that we will see an incident akin to Therac-25 in the near future. With as many people running YOLO mode on their agents as there are, Claude or Gemini is going to be hooked up to some real hardware that will end up killing someone. Personally, I've found even the latest batch of agents fairly poor at embedded systems, and I shudder at the thought of giving them the keys to the kingdom to say... a…

> Personally, I've found even the latest batch of agents fairly poor at embedded systems

I mean even simple crud web apps where the data models are more complex, and where the same data has multiple structures, the LLMs get confused after the second data transformation (at the most).

E.g. You take in data with field created_at, store it as created_on, and send it out to another system as last_modified.

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#25
My (tragically) favorite part is, from wikipedia:

> A commission attributed the primary cause to generally poor software design and development practices, rather than singling out specific coding errors.

Which to me reads as "this entire codebase was so awful that it was bound to fail in some or other way".

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#26
post #6

I'd be interested in knowing how many of y'all are being taught about this sort of thing in college ethics/safety/reliability classes. I was taught about this in engineering school, as part of a general engineering course also covering things like bathtub reliability curves and how to calculate the number of redundant cooling pumps a nuclear power plant needs. But it's a long time since I was in college. Is this sort…

I was taught about it in university as a computer science undergrad, thought about it often since I ended up working in medtech.

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#27
post #6

I'd be interested in knowing how many of y'all are being taught about this sort of thing in college ethics/safety/reliability classes. I was taught about this in engineering school, as part of a general engineering course also covering things like bathtub reliability curves and how to calculate the number of redundant cooling pumps a nuclear power plant needs. But it's a long time since I was in college. Is this sort…

This was part of our Systems Engineering class, something like this: https://web.mit.edu/6.033/2014/wwwdocs/assignments/therac25....

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#28
post #6

I'd be interested in knowing how many of y'all are being taught about this sort of thing in college ethics/safety/reliability classes. I was taught about this in engineering school, as part of a general engineering course also covering things like bathtub reliability curves and how to calculate the number of redundant cooling pumps a nuclear power plant needs. But it's a long time since I was in college. Is this sort…

Im too curious, I made a poll. I for sure wasnt in computer science uni. I only heard about it vaguely online.

https://strawpoll.com/NMnQNX9aAg6

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that a bug or a failure to inform pilots about a new system?

In the same vein one could argue that Therac-25 was not actually a software bug but a hardware problem. Interlocks, that could have prevented the accidents and that where present in earlier Therac models, were missing. The software was written with those interlocks in mind. Greedy management/hardware engineers skipped them for the -25 version. It's almost never just software. It's almost never just one cause.

Just to point it out even clearer - there's almost never a root cause.

Re: The Therac-25 Incident (2021)

#30
post #17
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that a bug or a failure to inform pilots about a new system?

Both - and really MCAS was fine but the issue was the metering systems (Pitot tubes) and the handling of conflicting data. That part of the puzzle was definitely a bug in the logic/software.

Remember the Airbus that crashed in the middle of the Atlantic because one of the pilots kept pulling on his yoke, and the computer decided to average his input with normal input from the other pilot?

Conflict resolution in redundant systems seems to be one of the weakest spots in modern aircraft software.

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