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Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

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Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#21

Post by smohare »

boothby wrote: post #5
gruez wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>doesn't the legal responsibility here lie with whichever person added Otter AI to group-calls without informing the other members IANAL but companies providing a product has certain responsibilities too, especially when they're intended to be used for a given purpose (ie. recording meetings with other people on it). Most call recording software I come across have a recording notice that can't be disabled, presumably…

I had a conversation with a lawyer who had invited OtterAI to our confidential meeting. I was gobsmacked, and I quickly read Otter's privacy statement -- my impression was that they retain your data in a cloud service and use your "anonymized" (or was it "depersonalized"?) recordings as future training data. Even if they have a bona fide reason for all that, I question their ability to store the data securely and suc…

[dead]

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#22

Post by cbm-vic-20 »

I've been getting Otter AI ads on the various ad-supported streaming services I watch. The ad shows a scenario where a couple of people are tapped for a last-minute meeting, but they've got other things to attend to (lunch, PTO), and they just have Otter sit in their place in the meeting.

I may be a dinosaur, but I was shocked at how casual they made this look (I know, it's just an ad), but I would be fired almost instantly at $ENTERPRISE if I did this. I almost looks like it's designed for corporate espionage.

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#23

Post by jmort »

I think we should have an opt-out standard via a subsonic signal, like DO NOT TRACK in browsers. Then, it's on the vendors to intentionally ignore a clear signal.

To that end, I've been working on opening sourcing https://dontrecord.me as a side project. Putting together a fork of Whisper that will follow the opt-out signal, too. If anyone one wants to help, please connect.

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#25

Post by brendang_sd »

athenot wrote: post #20
brendang_sd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the problem though, getting the email with a copy of the recording may be the unwitting participants first indication that the call was recorded without their knowledge or consent. Otters defense is that it’s up to their users to inform other participants and get their consent where necessary, the claim of the lawsuit is that Otter is deliberately making a product which does not make it obvious that the call i…

I remember being on sensitive zoom calls and seeing Otter.ai join. Had to track down which person was using it, and even they were clueless as to how it got there, and the client kept rejoining despite the user trying to stop it. I've never used this service so I don't know if the user was being particularly clueless or if some dark pattern was at play; I suspect it's probably a little bit of both.

You knew what to look for, and were presumably logged into a device which showed you participants... now imagine if you were on the go, or not very technical so joined from a phone using a phone # and a meeting code... you'd never see it or be aware. I contend Otter knows exactly what they are doing and hopefully this lawsuit gets them to get a bit more transparent and law abiding.

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#26

Post by ted_dunning »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #18
blitzar wrote: post #11

I cant believe I am going to say this - but I am on the Ai company side. They recorded the call and sent it to all participants. Its not their fault the users are idiots.

I mean, the standard product experience here is that everyone gets a visual or audio warning that the meeting is being recorded.

You aren't talking about the standard experience product experience with Otter.ai, are you? Hard to tell.

That's the crux of the article.

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#27

Post by Confiks »

A month ago a potential customer automatically included their Otter.ai meeting agent into a Teams call. The customer never turned up (he canceled the meeting somewhat later), but me and a colleague chatted a bit in the meeting. Then the Otter.ai meeting agent posted a link in the chat, from which it was clear that everything had been recorded, up to a complete video of the meeting with full facial imagery.

As I'm a European citizen, I filed a GDPR removal request with them to remove all images of me from their servers. The email address that they list in their privacy policy [1] for GDPR requests immediately bounces and tells you to reply from an Otter.ai account (which I don't have). I was able to fill in a contact form on their website and I did receive replies via email after that.

After a few emails back and forth, their position is that

> You will need to reach out to the conversation owner directly to request to have your information deleted/removed. Audio and screenshots created by the user are under the control of the user, not Otter.

> We are required by law to deny any request to delete personal information that may be contained within a recording or screenshot created by another user under the CCPA, Cal. Civil Code § 1798.145(k), which states in relevant part

> “The rights afforded to consumers and the obligations imposed on the business in this title shall not adversely affect the rights and freedoms of other natural persons. A verifiable consumer request…to delete a consumer’s personal information pursuant to Section 1798.105…shall not extend to personal information about the consumer that belongs to, or the business maintains on behalf of, another natural person…[A] business is under no legal obligation under this title or any other provision of law to take any action under this title in the event of a dispute between or among persons claiming rights to personal information in the business’ possession.”

Which is a ridiculous answer towards a European user, as the CCPA doesn't apply to me at all. Furthermore, I don't think the CCPA prohibits them at all in deleting my face from their servers, as the CCPA merely stipulates that I can't compel them under the CCPA. Otter.ai can perfectly decide this for themselves or be compelled under the GDPR to delete data, and their Terms and Conditions make it clear they may delete any user or data if they wish to do so.

After these emails, and me threatening to file a lawsuit, "Andrew" from "Otter.ai Support Team" promised to escalate the matter to his manager, but I got ghosted after that: they simply stopped replying.

So I'm going to file that lawsuit (a "verzoekschriftprocedure" under Dutch law) this week. It's going to be a very short complaint.

[1] https://otter.ai/privacy-policy

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#28

Post by tiahura »

Confiks wrote: post #27

A month ago a potential customer automatically included their Otter.ai meeting agent into a Teams call. The customer never turned up (he canceled the meeting somewhat later), but me and a colleague chatted a bit in the meeting. Then the Otter.ai meeting agent posted a link in the chat, from which it was clear that everything had been recorded, up to a complete video of the meeting with full facial imagery. As I'm a E…

They're not a European company.

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#29

Post by protonbob »

brendang_sd wrote: post #15
blitzar wrote: post #11

I cant believe I am going to say this - but I am on the Ai company side. They recorded the call and sent it to all participants. Its not their fault the users are idiots.

That’s the problem though, getting the email with a copy of the recording may be the unwitting participants first indication that the call was recorded without their knowledge or consent. Otters defense is that it’s up to their users to inform other participants and get their consent where necessary, the claim of the lawsuit is that Otter is deliberately making a product which does not make it obvious that the call i…

If it is just a tool then a tape recorder company should be liable as well. It doesn't do any sort of notice or make it obvious that someone is being recorded.

Re: Class-action suit claims Otter AI records private work conversations

#30

Post by cj »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #22

I've been getting Otter AI ads on the various ad-supported streaming services I watch. The ad shows a scenario where a couple of people are tapped for a last-minute meeting, but they've got other things to attend to (lunch, PTO), and they just have Otter sit in their place in the meeting. I may be a dinosaur, but I was shocked at how casual they made this look (I know, it's just an ad), but I would be fired almost in…

This is not why or how 99% of people use Otter. If that’s implied in their marketing, then their marketing team is terrible.
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