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Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

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Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#21

> “Successful” is importantly distinct from “correct.” This is the most important sentence describing the fundamental issue that LLMs have. This severely limits the technology's useful applications. Yet OpenAI and others constantly lie about it. The article very clearly explains why models won't be able to generalise unless RL is performed constantly. But that's not scalable, has other problems in itself. For example…

Agreed re the "successful" discussion, we're getting a much appreciated essential point here. I think it would be slightly better expressed by simply saying that we want a 0% error rate. Giving a correct answer and saying "I don't know" are both just ways of avoiding error.

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#23

> “Successful” is importantly distinct from “correct.” This is the most important sentence describing the fundamental issue that LLMs have. This severely limits the technology's useful applications. Yet OpenAI and others constantly lie about it. The article very clearly explains why models won't be able to generalise unless RL is performed constantly. But that's not scalable, has other problems in itself. For example…

can you say more about world models or symbolism? i thought world models like genie 3 would be the training mechanism, but i likely misunderstand.

A World Model is a theoretical type of model that has knowledge about the "real world" (or whatever world or bounds you define). It can infer causalities from concepts within this world.

Yes, you can use Genie 3 to train other models. Its far from perfect. You still need to train Genie 3. And its training and outputs must be useful in the context of what you want to train other models with. That's a paradox. The feedback loop needs to produce useful results. And Genie 3 can still hallucinate or produce implausible responses. Symbolism is a wide term. But a "World Model" needs it to make sense between concepts (e.g. Ontologies or the relation of movement and gravity).

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you say more about world models or symbolism? i thought world models like genie 3 would be the training mechanism, but i likely misunderstand.

A World Model is a theoretical type of model that has knowledge about the "real world" (or whatever world or bounds you define). It can infer causalities from concepts within this world. Yes, you can use Genie 3 to train other models. Its far from perfect. You still need to train Genie 3. And its training and outputs must be useful in the context of what you want to train other models with. That's a paradox. The feed…

>The feedback loop needs to produce useful results. And Genie 3 can still hallucinate or produce implausible responses

The solution to this is giving the model a physical body and actually letting it interact with the real world and learn from it. But no lab dares to try this because allowing a model to learn from experience would mean allowing it to potentially change its views/alignment.

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#25

The mechanisms the author describe are used for RLHF, but are not sufficient for training the recent slew of “reasoning models.” To do that, you have to generate rewards not based on proximity to some reference full answer transcript, but rather based on how well the final answer (ex: the part after the “thinking tokens”) meets your reward criteria. This turns out to be a lot harder to do than the mechanisms used for…

sorry, could you explain why is it harder, where the complexity creeps in (compared to some naive "pattern matching the end of the response" tactic)? thanks!

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#26
post #10

I'm confused about their definition of RL. > ... SFT is a subset of RL. > The first thing to note about traditional SFT is that the responses in the examples are typically human written. ... But it is also possible to build the dataset using responses from the model we’re about to train. ... This is called Rejection Sampling. I can see why someone might say there's overlap between RL and SFT (or semi-supervised FT),…

> I can see why someone might say there's overlap between RL and SFT (or semi-supervised FT), but how is "traditional" SFT considered RL? What is not RL then? Are they saying all supervised learning is a subset of RL, or only if it's fine tuning?

Sutton and Barto define reinforcement learning as "learning what to do- how to map situations to actions-- so as to maximize a numerical reward signal". This is from their textbook on the topic.

That's a pretty broad definition. But the general formulation of RL involves a state of the world and the ability to take different actions given that state. In the context of an LLM, the state could be what has been said so far, and the action could be what token to produce next.

But as you noted, if you take such a broad definition of RL, tons of machine learning is also RL. When people talk about RL they usually mean the more specific thing of letting a model go try things and then be corrected based on the observations of how that turned out.

Supervised learning defines success by matching the labels. Unsupervised learning is about optimizing a known math function (for example, predicting the likelihood that words would appear near each other). Reinforcement learning would maximize a reward function that may not be directly known by the model, and it learns to optimize it by trying things and observing the results and getting a reward/penalty.

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#27
post #25

The mechanisms the author describe are used for RLHF, but are not sufficient for training the recent slew of “reasoning models.” To do that, you have to generate rewards not based on proximity to some reference full answer transcript, but rather based on how well the final answer (ex: the part after the “thinking tokens”) meets your reward criteria. This turns out to be a lot harder to do than the mechanisms used for…

sorry, could you explain why is it harder, where the complexity creeps in (compared to some naive "pattern matching the end of the response" tactic)? thanks!

Just speculating but proximity to a reference answer is a much denser reward signal. In contrast, parsing out a final answer into a pass/fail only provides a sparse reward signal.

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A World Model is a theoretical type of model that has knowledge about the "real world" (or whatever world or bounds you define). It can infer causalities from concepts within this world. Yes, you can use Genie 3 to train other models. Its far from perfect. You still need to train Genie 3. And its training and outputs must be useful in the context of what you want to train other models with. That's a paradox. The feed…

>The feedback loop needs to produce useful results. And Genie 3 can still hallucinate or produce implausible responses The solution to this is giving the model a physical body and actually letting it interact with the real world and learn from it. But no lab dares to try this because allowing a model to learn from experience would mean allowing it to potentially change its views/alignment.

Labs have been doing that since Brooks' Subsumption Architecture decades ago. The problem with AI now is that the architectural design, unlike the brain, doesn't have grounded memory and hallucination mitigation. Letting those architectures walk around in the real world would show similar flaws.

Multiple teams already baked memory into designs, some like typical ML and some biologically inspired. Hallucination mitigation needs a ton more research. My proposal was studying the part of the brain that causes hallucinations when damaged in case it's designed to mitigate them. Then, imitate it until we have something better.

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#29
post #25

The mechanisms the author describe are used for RLHF, but are not sufficient for training the recent slew of “reasoning models.” To do that, you have to generate rewards not based on proximity to some reference full answer transcript, but rather based on how well the final answer (ex: the part after the “thinking tokens”) meets your reward criteria. This turns out to be a lot harder to do than the mechanisms used for…

sorry, could you explain why is it harder, where the complexity creeps in (compared to some naive "pattern matching the end of the response" tactic)? thanks!

The pattern matching compares what was said against an example of what a correct response could say.

Checking a token at a time evaluates if it is going to produce a correct final answer. The intermediate text can be whatever it needs to arrive at that answer, but training at the per token level means training those very tokens that you want to allow the model the leeway to consider. It needs another model to adjudicate how well things are going from incomplete answers.

I'm not sure how much the adjudicator evaluates based upon knowing the final answer or based upon the quality of the reasoning of the model being trained. I'd be inclined to train two adjudicators, one that knows the answers and one that doesn't. I'm sure there would be interesting things to see in their differential signal.

Re: Dispelling misconceptions about RLHF

#30

Nit: the author says that supervised fine tuning is a type of RL, but it is not. RL is about delayed reward. Supervised fine tuning is not in any way about delayed reward.

RL is about getting numerical feedback of outputs, in contrast to supervised learning where there are examples of what the output should be. There are many RL problems with no delayed rewards, e.g. multi-armed bandits.

Admittely most interesting cases do have delays.

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