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“The Hollow Men” at 100

prufrock.substack.com

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Re: “The Hollow Men” at 100

#21

Post by aspenmayer »

danans wrote: post #16
multjoy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t make it any better. They also had significant opposition.

Indeed, they had opposition. However, the way we have been taught history has been laundered to make us think that Nazi ideology never had a significant base of support outside of Germany, when the truth was that it was not only significant, but segregated American society under Jim Crow was in several ways a model for the Nazis.

US treatment of migrant workers under the Bracero program and US usage of Zyklon B on migrant workers as a delousing agent directly inspired Nazis. This came to a head at the so-called bath riots in 1917:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots

This has come up a couple times before on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38552760

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381708

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40382627

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40646876

Re: “The Hollow Men” at 100

#22

Post by tptacek »

multjoy wrote: post #17
alkyon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Wagner and lots of other artists around that time. Agatha Christie's most famous novel? - Ten Little Niggers. Jean Genet was a convicted criminal. I try to separate the work from the artist, even if it's difficult.

OP doesn’t even acknowledge it. Eliot chose, in 1948, when the Holocaust was common knowledge, to reprint a poem that contains the line: >On the Rialto once./The rats are underneath the piles. The jew is underneath the lot. That isn’t a poet following a common zeitgeist, that is a deliberate, provocative act.

I think it's a valid and important observation, but it's not incumbent on someone bring up T.S. Eliot to offer a disclaimer about it, and you shouldn't write a comment that implies otherwise.

Re: “The Hollow Men” at 100

#23

Post by halJordan »

hyperhello wrote: post #2

The Hollow Men is from 1925. Try to read it like a beatnik poet, world-weary and confident, with finger snaps and bongo drums or a jazz orchestra in the background. Eliot was a fascinating fellow traveler person. My favorite site for his poems is here: https://mypoeticside.com/poets/t-s-eliot-poems

There are recordings of TS Eliot reading this poem. So while we should imagine your desired reading for its own worth, a "beatnik" reading shouldn't be implied as the original reading

Re: “The Hollow Men” at 100

#24

Post by mjcohen »

aspenmayer wrote: post #21
danans wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, they had opposition. However, the way we have been taught history has been laundered to make us think that Nazi ideology never had a significant base of support outside of Germany, when the truth was that it was not only significant, but segregated American society under Jim Crow was in several ways a model for the Nazis.

US treatment of migrant workers under the Bracero program and US usage of Zyklon B on migrant workers as a delousing agent directly inspired Nazis. This came to a head at the so-called bath riots in 1917: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots This has come up a couple times before on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38552760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40381708 https://news.ycombinator.com/it…

TIL

Re: “The Hollow Men” at 100

#25

Post by multjoy »

tptacek wrote: post #22
multjoy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP doesn’t even acknowledge it. Eliot chose, in 1948, when the Holocaust was common knowledge, to reprint a poem that contains the line: >On the Rialto once./The rats are underneath the piles. The jew is underneath the lot. That isn’t a poet following a common zeitgeist, that is a deliberate, provocative act.

I think it's a valid and important observation, but it's not incumbent on someone bring up T.S. Eliot to offer a disclaimer about it, and you shouldn't write a comment that implies otherwise.

Why? Who are you to say what I can, and cannot, write?

Re: “The Hollow Men” at 100

#26

Post by tptacek »

multjoy wrote: post #25
tptacek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a valid and important observation, but it's not incumbent on someone bring up T.S. Eliot to offer a disclaimer about it, and you shouldn't write a comment that implies otherwise.

Why? Who are you to say what I can, and cannot, write?

I mean, you do you, but it's not a reasonable complaint.
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