Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

hms.harvard.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 108 posts

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#21

Post by alphazard »

modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

The error in "safteyism" isn't that the conventional wisdom will incorrectly identify safe things as dangerous. It's that risk and reward always exists on a spectrum, and the people best incentivized to get that tradeoff right are patients and caretakers, not concerned 3rd parties.

The error of the concerned 3rd party is particularly egregious with a disease like Alzheimer's, which presents a significant risk of ruin in the form of information death. It is totally rational to use an intervention that will cause you significant harm if it preserves your mind another few years.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#22

Post by tgv »

jsbisviewtiful wrote: post #10
modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

> I reject this kind of blind safetyism. You said you searched to learn more about lithium, but somehow missed that it's highly recommended to be administered by doctors due to side effects after long term use. Anything that damages your kidneys or thyroids can kill you, so calling it "blind safetyism" is silly.

Especially since mice are not really perfect models for humans. For starters: these mice were "12 to 24 months of age", whereas your typical Alzheimer patient is well over 30 times that. The article also links it to amyloid plaques, which is a contested hypothesis that may well have held back Alzheimer research for decades. To be fair, the article seems to look at more mechanisms, but that's well beyond my expertise.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#23

Post by hollerith »

jsbisviewtiful wrote: post #10
modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

> I reject this kind of blind safetyism. You said you searched to learn more about lithium, but somehow missed that it's highly recommended to be administered by doctors due to side effects after long term use. Anything that damages your kidneys or thyroids can kill you, so calling it "blind safetyism" is silly.

The kidney damage, etc, are consequences of the very high doses of lithium needed to control bipolar disorder.

Most experts who have been recommending lithium supplementation to support general health recommend doses about 100 or 300 times lower.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#24

Post by rogerrogerr »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #20
rogerrogerr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s blind safetyism when an article writes “don’t do this because no one has proven it is safe”. Most people will read that as “you can probably do this but in the off chance something bad happens, I wrote these words so you have a harder time suing me”. It would be more useful and effective for the article to say “don’t do this to yourself because it can damage your guts, see these links, there’s tradeoffs here” Th…

> The former just fades into the modern world’s background noise of unchecked ass-covering. The missing piece of this argument is just what the probability of different legal risks is here. Wether or not their ass-covering is reasonable hinges on that and on their risk tolerance.

Oh, it’s rational for them! That’s the problem - it’s always rational to treat anything you write as the highest level of liability. No one loses money by adding more disclaimers. Observe:

Drinking water is a good idea.

*check with your doctor if you are allergic to water, have a history of drowning, or are unable to distinguish water from ethanol. Do not consume water while intubated. People with rabies may have adverse reactions to water. Use caution when drinking water if you cannot swallow or are currently vomiting. Water from some sources may be contaminated. Salt water may contain jellyfish.

—-

My legal exposure from the initial statement went down with every little stupid disclaimer I added there, and there’s no penalty for each one. But you probably didn’t even read the full thing. We’ve created a culture of everyone feeling like they need to cover their ass, and the real important things get drowned out.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#25

Post by hirvi74 »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #8

Lithium is a strange drug. It also cures bipolar disorder and nobody knows why. It also fucks up the liver over time and basically people on lithium eventually have to make a choice between dying or being insane.

That's quite a stretch. Lithium does not cure bipolar disorder nor is it effective in many afflicted. Also, Lithium is not the only medication for Bipolar Disorder, there are a double-digit number of alternative options.

Also, to my knowledge, we are not entirely sure why most, if not all, of the psychiatric drugs work. Plenty of hypotheses though.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#26

Post by lawlessone »

modeless wrote: post #4

Lithium orotate is available over the counter. People could try it today. > Since lithium has not yet been shown to be safe or effective in protecting against neurodegeneration in humans, Yankner emphasizes that people should not take lithium compounds on their own I reject this kind of blind safetyism. A cursory search suggests that lithium orotate has been used for decades, and the article suggests that "profound e…

I've heard of suggestions that it should be added to water(in low doses of course) to see it reduces suicide rates.

I like the idea but can only imagine the anti-flouride crowd would freak out.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#27

Post by wonderwonder »

Angostura wrote: post #19
wonderwonder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents? I don't really understand this mindset. I already ordered 5mg tablets of lithium orate as soon as I read this. I…

> I don't really understand this mindset. It's called evidence-based medicine and it's useful for answering questions such such as 'with taking Lithium prevent Alzheimer's by ensuring you die of kidney disease first. Taking a bunch of unnecessary supplements isn't inherently "safe".

Low dose lithium is not going to cause kidney failure. I was also responding specifically to OP advocating for people to intentionally not to take it so there is a ready supply of people to test it on who are not already on it for a long period of time (decades). They are advocating for self sacrifice.

This by default means there must be a large supply of people not on it for a long period of time who will suffer and die from Alzheimer's instead of just taking the supplement. That was my issue. It seemed to call for the self sacrifice of many in order to allow for a long term study. But I think you already know that if you read my response and just chose to focus on a single sentence.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#28

Post by switchbak »

MaxPock wrote: post #2

Things I love to read. I went to visit my aunt one day, and my favourite uncle couldn't recognize me. It made me think that Alzheimer's is probably the worst thing that could happen to a person. I mean, what's worse than not being able to recognize those closest to you? You work a lifetime, and then you go out in such an undignified manner. I pray for a cure in my lifetime.

> It made me think that Alzheimer's is probably the worst thing that could happen to a person

I've had relatives die of Alzheimer's, and others die from other causes. Let me assure you that there are worse fates than the one you describe.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#29

Post by cubefox »

wonderwonder wrote: post #15
cubefox wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're going to need a much better explanation of why people shouldn't try it. Clinical trials need many participants and take a long time, and they require a control group which doesn't take lithium orotate. Finding these people might be hard if everyone is taking it anyway.

So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents? I don't really understand this mindset. I already ordered 5mg tablets of lithium orate as soon as I read this. I…

The alternative to a clinical trial would be that there continues to be much less certainty whether lithium orotate actually works and is safe. Which would result in less or more usage than optimal.

Re: Lithium compound can reverse Alzheimer’s in mice: study

#30

Post by wonderwonder »

cubefox wrote: post #29
wonderwonder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if after a long time its proven that it does prevent Alzheimer's, was the deaths of everyone that would have been taking lithium to prevent it due to this anecdotal article worth it? Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents? I don't really understand this mindset. I already ordered 5mg tablets of lithium orate as soon as I read this. I…

The alternative to a clinical trial would be that there continues to be much less certainty whether lithium orotate actually works and is safe. Which would result in less or more usage than optimal.

I will ask you the same question I asked OP

"Would you be willing to die of Alzheimer's in order to serve as a placebo for the control group? What about your parents?"

Since that is essentially what you are asking the people that would have ordered low dose lithium based on this article to do.

Post reply on HN