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EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

cointelegraph.com

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Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#21

Post by Cartoxy »

9rx wrote: post #12
Cartoxy wrote: post #3

This seam like a hopeless endeavor. If circumvention takes little to no effort the people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. And everyone else will just hate the burdensome bloat, etc. If you know your not a theif having your bags checked after paying is an annoyance

> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead. The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the da…

I think that actually access does beget creep and indulge.

Not always but often. You think the amount of Pea Dough would go up with abolition. Doubts from me.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#22

Post by [deleted] »

10298373 wrote: post #19
9rx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead. The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the da…

The data tells us that many child abusers are caught with CSAM as well, so it does jack shit to keep them from abusing kids, Take your CSAM apologia somewhere else.

[deleted]

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#23

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

9rx wrote: post #12
Cartoxy wrote: post #3

This seam like a hopeless endeavor. If circumvention takes little to no effort the people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. And everyone else will just hate the burdensome bloat, etc. If you know your not a theif having your bags checked after paying is an annoyance

> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead. The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the da…

Even if it were true (and it might be) that these people would commit less-or-none abuse if they can continue to have access to the csam, the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse. It seems akin to child sacrifice. Whose kid must be tormented so that other kids can go unmolested?

That said, not sure that draconian, ubiquitous surveillance is the correct (or even effective) solution to the problem.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#25

Post by integralid »

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless:

>Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality

Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not signal, interestingly). Most stealers and many other malware families use telegram to exfiltrate data and stolen credentials. It's also used as public announcement channels for criminal groups. Telegram ignores all reports about known malicious chats, despite it being easily provable, not to mention it's not e2e encrypted.

At this point this is not resisting censorship but knowingly profiting from crime. Continuing the analogy, it's like post office was sending mails for terrorists, despite police staying in the hallway and begging them to stop that.

(my job is related to anti-malware and cybercrime prevention)

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#26

Post by 9rx »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #15
9rx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead. The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the da…

> what does the data actually tell us? The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM. While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, Mark Bridger, Jeffrey Dahmer, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions. Dahmer stated it was his r…

However, the anecdotal evidence around the regular adult porn industry is that users go in the opposite direction. The data is abundantly clear that people, especially young people, are having less sex, all while porn consumption has increased substantially. Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer.

Why it is it different?

At what rate have child abuses declined?

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#28

Post by aaomidi »

integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

Then ban the app.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#29

Post by nemomarx »

integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

I think the post office screening letters to be sure terrorists aren't sending them would also be pretty bad

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#30

Post by 10298373 »

9rx wrote: post #26
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what does the data actually tell us? The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM. While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, Mark Bridger, Jeffrey Dahmer, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions. Dahmer stated it was his r…

However, the anecdotal evidence around the regular adult porn industry is that users go in the opposite direction. The data is abundantly clear that people, especially young people, are having less sex, all while porn consumption has increased substantially. Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer. Why it is it different? At what rate have child abuses declined?

> Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer.

That's a massive stretch—there are many things that have been declining along with the rate at which people have been having sex. Porn is in no way "the most compelling answer". It certainly could be a factor, sure, but by no means the only one.

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